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An unfortunate article by someone I respect

I read with interest Datuk Sakmongkol’s antagonistic writings against Tun Dr Mahathir’s memoirs.

Obviously, being too close to Tengku Razaleigh had led him to write without objectively analysing the content of the book.

And it is unfortunate that he started his article with a lie he created.

He based all his arguments on one sentence that he created from his imagination. He actually wrote that Tun had stated – ‘I have indian blood but I am malay.’

Please read below:

I HAVE INDIAN BLOOD BUT I AM MALAY.

When Dr. Mahathir said those lines, I nearly fell off the chair. Not because, the Malay categorization of such a fellow is a Mamak or and Indian Muslim, but because of the admission of political chameleon-ness of the person.

Because of that, we can now reconcile such an admission with one particular categorization of Dr Mahathir – that of a political liar. To re affirm his brand of politics, Dr Mahathir is willing to not tell the truth. His memoir contains not hard truths but fabricated deceits.

That was a great start to an article isn’t it?

He used that sentence to string some convoluted logic that since Tun had said something totally opposite, he must be a  political liar. He even go to the extent that Tun Mahathir is a born liar.

In actual fact, Tun Mahathir said this:

I am well aware that my ethnic origin has been the subject of much animated debate. Some claim that my father was Malayalee and was fluent in both Tamil and Malayalam. Some have even written that he was a Hindu who converted to Islam to marry my mother. Others say that they have seen documents clearly stating my ethnicity. I admit that some Indian, or more accurately South Asian blood flows in my veins, but from which part of the Indian subcontinent my ancestors came I do not know. Malays in the past did not keep track of their lineage, although most of those with Arab blood can trace their roots to Yemen and know which family they belong to.

Some people will see this chapter as racist at worst, and narcissistic at best – it is intended as neither. I am a Malay and am proud of it.

…. my family and I have always fulfilled those formal criteria. But I am a Malay not just on paper. I am also a Malay in sentiment and in spirit. I identify completely with the Malays and their problems, their past and their present, their achievements and failures.

Usually if somebody goes out of his way to criticise over something using really flimsy argument, what more the criticism is laced with such rancour and hostility, we can safely assume that somebody is trying very hard to change the perception and the  original perception was indeed correct. For how else, can we surmise such biased article where the whole argument is based only on a sentence that was created by Sakmongkol?

He had taken a whole paragraph out of context and spun it into a whole article.

Furthermore, surely Datuk Sakmongkol cannot deduce that the book contains only fabricated deceits and no hard truths. I hope he is not implying that not a single shred of truth is available in it.

He even go as far as agreeing Anwart Ibrahim’s allegation that Tun is a blatant liar. Well, how else can Anwar defend himself over the incident that was retold by Tun in his book? Does Sakmongkol agree with Anwar that no girls were brought to see Tun to expose Anwar’s ferocious sexual appetite?

I bet even Sakmongkol knew that was true. Grasping at straws like this is quite embarrassing.

His take on certain events are also skewed to show that Tengku Razaleigh  and all Tun Mahathir’s deputies were the victims of the great man’s political onslaught.

If he says that nobody can oppose Tun Mahathir when he was the Prime Minister, he should adjust his mind to see the truth – his tenureship as the PM was mired with challenges from usurpers.

And one of those challenges went all the way to the highest platform to appoint a leader – the Umno general assembly.

So why would Sakmongkol say – Umno is an acronym of Under Mahathir Never Oppose?

Because, when Tun Mahathir was the PM and Sakmongkol was an Umno leader somewhere in Pekan, I am sure Sakmongkol never opposed Tun Mahathir; not because he couldn’t oppose, but because there was nothing to oppose about. Right?

For a split second, I thought such bitter remarks could possibly came about not from him but from Tengku Razaleigh himself.

Is he saying that when someone opposes you, you should just give way and let your challenger assume your position? Please bear in mind, Tengku Razaleigh is not someone without flaws. And I say this without demeaning my respect towards him.

But to utterly berate someone using such racist and callous context, and with certain malice and lies, is very unfortunate indeed.

Tun Mahathir is not perfect. He made mistakes like all of us. But to indirectly say that he is worse than all of us is stretching it a bit too far. And to argue along ethnic lines is stooping to the Pakatan Rakyat’s racist propaganda.

So what if he has two spoonfuls of indian blood? If he said he is Malay, then he is Malay.  By definition and by his lifestyle. Who are we to call him mamak or someone who is bipolar? And who are you to use that as your contention? A racist?

I wrote this sometime ago:

Myth number 5 – Tun Mahathir is a mamak disguising himself as a malay

The people from the opposition kept calling Tun Dr Mahathir as Mamak Mahathir and even criticised him as someone trying to be malay eventhough he is actually a mamak.

Now, who in the right mind would call him this? Nobody except the racist among us.

To set things straight, Tun Mahathir’s grandfather was indeed an Indian Muslim. And the indian ancestry stops there. His grandfather married a malay woman and produced Mohamad Iskandar, the first headmaster of Kolej Sultan Abdul Hamid.

Mohamad Iskandar married Wan Tempawan Wan Hanapi and had Tun Mahathir as the youngest son.

In any standard, he is a malay. But many people still see him as a mamak and ostracise him for trying to be more malay than a mamak. Even if we go technical, Tun Mahathir is 75% malay, and 25% indian. Isn’t that enough justification to see that he is malay after all?

But all this is besides the point.

The point is, wasn’t the opposition who drummed the idea that racial identification is racist, people should not be recognised through race so on and so forth. They even proposed that the race identity in identity cards be abolished.

The irony is, they themselves can’t stop being racist when criticising Tun Mahathir. All this diatribe and racial abuse come from the so called ‘antiracist’ opposition! Why demonising the Tun using racial card?

Do you think all the indian muslims in this country won’t get offended? Do you think you are damn good to racially insult people?

Need I say more? Please do not lie to please somebody else. After all, like Sakmongkol said himself –

A memoir is what it is- a very personalized and heavily nuanced version of history. In the case of a memoir or autobiography- a personalized and heavily nuanced version of HIS legacy and a selective recollection of aspects of history.

Who are we to ridicule his own version of his life story?  Tengku Razaleigh can start writing his own memoirs if he wants to.

To all his detractors, write your own book before resorting to attack Tun Mahathir with racial slants and fluffy arguments.

Thank you.

p.s: Tan Sri Sanusi Junid wrote his own version that may correlate with events that happened 24 years ago. Some of us may be in our late 20s / early 30s and do not know much of what had happened at that time.

172 thoughts on “An unfortunate article by someone I respect

  1. Dear sir,

    I believe that Tun Dr. Mahathir is what you call a Jawi Peranakan – “locally-born Muslims of mixed South Asian and Malay ancestry”, as explained by Wikipedia.

    According to Wikipedia also, Mamak refers to “a term used in Malaysia to describe the Indian Tamil Muslim community and culture”.

    I believe Tun’s haters need to do a little more research before they brand him a political liar, chameleon etc – descriptions more suitable for other people.

    Thank you.

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    • ah latok sakmongkol .. the self made malaikat which never agrees on mahathir & najib. Hanya kentut KJ, Pak Lah jer yang wangi pada dia.

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    • The point has to be made that, aside from the Constitutional definition of a Malay, a person is a Malay where his blood is thick with Malay blood.

      As to how thick the Malay blood should be to be called a Malay in the non-Constitutional respect as well, the product of how many generations of mixed marriages determines it so, these can be discussed. But there must be a proper basis for determining that. Agree that race cannot be determined just by skin colour, sharp or flat noses alone.

      ikhwan below has spoken about DNA mapping. Modern scientific techinques are now available to supplement, even dispute, old theories and non-DNA findings.

      On such a serious subject as race and such a sensitive matter in multi-racial Malaysia as “kaum pendatang”, there must be reference made to authoritative and currently valid sources of information and opinions, like in books written and published by those with credibility and repute, rather than “personal theories” based on out-dated findings and old men’s tales.

      Tun Dr Mahathir has Indian blood from his grandfather and full-blooded Malay heritage on his grandmother and mother’s sides. Even from his grandfather’s side, he is the third generation.

      Mamak refers to those Indian Muslims who may not have Malay blood at all, who habitually speak Indian or Tamil at home and among themselves, but speak Malay at meetings and when in the company of Malays. I know for a fact these Mamaks exist as one of them even got into MCKK though he spoke Indian at home, his family engaged in a rather lucrative stevedoring business in Penang, referred to as “Mamak Tongkang”. And it’s not demeaning to refer to them as such, for that is what they and their occupation were.

      But to call Tun Dr Mahathir mamak is atrocious and heinous. The disgruntled, chipped shoulders, and the malicious do that. Sad specimen of human beings.

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    • Postscript:

      In fact, the non-Malays should not be sensitive being called “pendatang”. The facts of history show that largely they came and settled in this country only in the latter part of the 19th Century. It’s only DAP propaganda, exploiting any and every aspect of life in this country for political gain.

      History being made a compulsory subject in schools w.e.f 2013 should help future generations disregard DAP propaganda.

      Now, they may be basking in glory that people like Sakmongkol are putting Tun Dr Mahathir down, helping their political agenda.

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    • Contrary to what others might think of him, I greatly respect some of his articles. I do not know him personally so I will not transgress on anything personal. But whenever he writes something that I happened to agree, I always enjoyed the thoughts that he was trying to put through.

      Nevertheless, there are things that I do not agree. In particular this article of his that I am highlighting. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion and I try to convey mine responsibly. Thank you.

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    • Bravo pakdokter. Saya setuju sangat pendapat pakdokter ni.

      JMD ini orangnya sangat baik hati, lemah lembut, dia kritik orang dengan kuat pun, dia mesti end it with Thank you. I must say many people respect him for that.

      Though I and a few others don’t follow his style. I wallop where walloping is due and lose respect for so-called Melayu liberal who are, in fact, pseudo liberals, or even pengkhianat bangsa.

      JMD : Haha. Colorful people here and there makes this blog a lively one..! Thank you.

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      • JMD should be elected as President of a Bloggers Association and I’m nominating him for that position if any new Association is being formed from now on. He may not want it for time constraints but I urge him to accept it when convenient for him to do so.

        He really is a responsible person, weighs his words and actions before saying and doing them. Most importantly, he responds to others’ comments in his blog where necessary, which can’t be said of all those seeking or already are holding posts in such an organization. I have such an unpleasant experience with one, I will admit.

        And this is not to curry his favour for space in his blog because I think he always publishes the ordinary, non-rude though possibly divergent, even contradictory comments.

        JMD : Thank you for the kind words Wan.

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  2. I used to follow Sakmongkol’s postings which I found interesting. But he somehow got lost along the way. The bitterness is so pervasive, so obvious. There may be reasons that led to him being like this.

    What I can see is someone so bitter because he no longer has the ears of those in power. He was once an elected representative, from UMNO. Just one term I believe. And for whatever reason, he was “discarded”. So he hits back, at anything and anyone he believes has contributed to his demise or is related in some way to those who have considered him surplus to requirements. In doing so, he thinks maybe this can help him attract a new sponsor/backer perhaps. So his criticisms of DS Najib, and UMNO.

    Poor old fella is trying to resurrect himself. The thinker with the right thoughts and ideas. He also tries to “rejuvenate” himself ( its personal, although you may get my drift?). But many know who he is and what he’s trying to do. Let him. He is of no consequence. If he can be even 1/100th of the Tun, then maybe some people may want to listen to him. But for me, he will be a nonentity, however clever or bold he may think of himself.

    I couldn’t write like what you just did, so thanks JMD for your defence of Tun M and your “gentle” critique of the great Sakmongkol.

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    • Just wanna say that you also have a “gentle critique” of the “great (?) Sakmongkol”. I like it when you people say it gently but it does give a stinging effect. I don’t like Malay apologists like Sakmongkol, period.

      So much playing to the tune of the ever exploiting nons since Tun Dol’s time until now that Tun Dr Mahathir is a hero to me now and anyone apologizing for that is not in my good books, folks.

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  3. Dear Sir,
    Like you said, Tun Mahathir is like all other human beings who make mistakes, like all of us do but he doesnt make the greatest mistake of the all – doing nothing. His contributions to the Malays, the society, the nation, the third world countries and so much more speak for itself the man he really is. Who is Sakmongkol to say what he saying to Tun Mahathir. Thank you, Jebat for standing to Tun M.

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  4. JMD,

    Since Sakmongkol has demeaned Tun Dr Mahathir, I suppose it’s OK for me to demean him as well.

    I have long ago ceased to read him when it became obvious that he was a Malay apologist. I had thought that he was trying to show he was a liberal but turned out to be a pseudo-liberal i.e pretending to be a liberal but actually is not. A liberal is broad minded and one cannot be broad minded if one does not see the need for levelling the playing field in this country.

    Then he betted so much on and spoke endlessly for Khairy Jamaluddin winning UMNO Youth Head post, after that, for KJ to be given a Cabinet post such that readers accused him of being paid by the rich SIL of Tun Dol, that he was leaving his wife behind in Kuantan (the poor wife even sounded emotionally miserable in her blog) for another woman and a new house in KL.

    What can you expect of a man with that kind of background. Quite a few of the anti-levelling the playing field fellows found his blog a comfort, listening to him bashing DS Najib and the Establishment. Now he must be tagging along the same anti-NEP fellows who find TDM so objectionable because the Malays achieved quite a lot of the 18% coporate equity they have under his Premiership.

    I don’t know what he writes about Tengku Razaleigh but he surely favours the man who has given him the “big scoop” of an interview during the early days of DS Najib premiership. He beamed from ear to ear under that limelight of a Ku Li interview success.

    The man’s tenure as ADUN Pahang was not renewed beyond a single term and DS Najib was the state UMNO boss then. His own blog mentioned of Government Officers at the Pahang State Development Corporation etc in unfavourable terms, he being the “economic expert” etc. I got the impression he was shooting his own foot even when an ADUN, no wonder his service was not extended for another term. He not only is hard on TDM, he also has no kind words for DS Najib.

    Of course, like KJ, he is against Ibrahim Ali and Perkasa. I wonder if he is still an UMNO member and whether he still speaks for the “merajukking” (“don’t want to stand in PRU13”) KJ these days.

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  5. Dato SAkmongkol article target those who do not read the book, as most of malaysian will not as RM100 is to much for Malay who do not have the habit of reading. He will target the general audience who just read anti establishment blogs and he will find they will agree with him that TDM is a compulsive liar.

    I personally can relate word by word to what TDM has written in his book. It makes sense to me on many things that left unexplained when certain decision made by the govt since he took office. Only if he has explain himself much earlier …….

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  6. It is unfortunate all these have to happen. The Malays are split. Can we get Mahathir and Razaleigh into a “ring” and let them “box” each other out for all of us to finally know the truth.

    Mahathir as defined under the constitution of Malaysia is a “Malay” is true but as one Muslim scholar told me, one must not throw away one’s heritage.

    So many lies and deceits that we all have to endure nowadays. Why? The Muslim scholar again told me that this is due to the fact that we have deviated from the true teachings of Islam to satisfy our “lusts”, in whatever form, even without realising it. Nauzubillah!

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  7. JMD
    Some years back when you reformat you blog, you only have “Listed”, “Spot the Bloggers” and “Sakmangkol Journal”. I enjoyed reading “Listed” (and I am going to pop in after this). Sometimes I have a peek at “Spot the bloggers” but very very rare at “Sakmangkol”.

    Many times I wonder why you gave him special preferrances

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  8. Salam 1M 2 U.

    Thank you 4 ur post. V hav a same wave length. Yup2. Dato Sak, U hav lost my respect. Will X even bother 2 read his piece anymore. Hope he read this – my post.

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  9. I have been following Sakmongkol’s blog for for quite a while. My reading of this former ADUN is that he is a pompous ass who’s full of himself and nothing much else, I’m sorry to say. He thinks he’s one clever chap. Truth be told, he’s just a one-term rep who harbours a lot of resentment against his old masters for not giving him a second chance. Grow up Sakmongkol. You are a has-been. Deal with it.

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  10. I read that article too. I thought his account was hijacked. Flimsy argument and malicious intent all around. A post not unlike other anwaristas. Huh.

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  11. Sakmongkol is proud man. His articles are published in MT and MI. Compared to his life as an UMNO gurkha in Pekan Division years ago, he is now the poster boy or better sttill the poster grandpa for the malay liberals. He’s craving for recognition and respect, JMD. Is that too much too ask?

    Shalela

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  12. jebatmustdie,

    One point to add, there are no pure Malays left anyway. If the Malays trace their origins, they’d probably uncover that there are one of these decendants whereby “Malay” is referred to as the Malay of peninsula origins:

    1. Jawi Peranakan – Mix Malay-Indian Muslim or Malay-Arab
    2. Baba Nyonya – Mix Malay-Chinese
    3. Mix Malay-Siamese
    4. Mix Malay-Indegeniuous such as Negritos, Jakun, Iban, Kadazan, etc
    5. Mix Malay-Bugis
    6. Mix Malay-Jawa
    7. Mix Malay-Bouyan
    8. Mix Malay-European such as Portugese of Melaka
    9. Mix Malay-Riau
    10. Mix Malay-Sumatran such as the Rawas, Minang, etc

    In fact, the Malays are not even the original inhabitants of the peninsular, nor Borneo. The original inhabitants of this land are the Negroids, similar to those called Aborigines in Australia and Negros in Africa. They are Negritos, who also exist in the Philippines.

    Malays are in fact, immigrants (or “Pendatangs”) themselves thousands of years ago from the North, the land of Yunan somewhere south of Mongolia and middle China. Malays are the Mongoloids who travelled to the peninsula way long after the Negroids have travelled from the land of Africa.

    But why are the Malays regarded as the so called “Bumiputra” (Sons of Earth) of peninsula and Borneo? Well, if I am not mistaken, there are a few criteria for which one must agree that they are sensible. They are:

    1. Majority ethnic group; and
    2. The ethnic that established the first effective government

    Tun Mahathir wrote this in more detailed in his Malay Dilemma. Majority alone will not suffice. In the case of Malays, they too established the first effective governments – the likes of Srivijaya, Mataram, Majapahit, Langkasuka, Temasek, Melaka and those of the same era that not only covers the peninsula and Borneo, it also covers the entire Malay archipelago from Acheh to Papua New Guinea, from Patani to Jawa; for which, its influence travelled to the South Philippines (Mindanao).

    So, to rebut the racist comments made by those against Tun Mahathir’s ethnic origin, we should acknowledge that Malay is a very broad category really. It covers a wide range of spectrum that even if you immediate father is purely 100% Chinese or Indian, but your mother is not even 100% Malay, you can still be regarded as Malay. In fact, I, myself am 1/16 India + 1/16 Chinese + 14/16 Malay.

    What is important is that you live like a Malay, you eat Malay food, you talk Bahasa Melayu, you dress like a Malay and to certain extent, you believe what Malays believe (although Bumiputras include those beyond Muslim). With all intend and purposes, if your spirit and soul is Malay, then you are Malay just like how Natrah was eventhough she was 100% Dutch.

    To twist such racial sentiment into a political context is really an irresponsible deed with no basis. After all, let the old man (Tun) tell his story the way he likes because it is his story.

    * kopihangtuah

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    • kopihangtuah,

      I wonder what is your source for stating the “fact” –

      “In fact, the Malays are not even the original inhabitants of the peninsular, nor Borneo. The original inhabitants of this land are the Negroids, similar to those called Aborigines in Australia and Negros in Africa. They are Negritos, who also exist in the Philippines.”

      Do read the book, “Tamadun Alam Melayu” by Mohd Arof Ishak, published by The Historical Society of Malaysia, 2009. You’ll find explanations on the scores of research and academic studies scientifically done since Captain Cook’s travels in the mid 19th Century, carried on through the 20th Century, intensified in the 2nd half of the last Century, by experts in linguistics, anthropology, archaeology etc.

      They point out the findings that the Malays originated some 5,000 years ago in the Malay Archipelago or Gugusan Pulau Pulau Melayu, of which the Malay Peninsular and Borneo are part and parcel. The Malays, adapt at shipbuilding
      (beginning with the perahu fitted with outriggers) and navigational skills, travelled in and out of the Malay Archipelago and beyond, reaching Madagascar, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Indo-China, Taiwan, the Pacific Islands up to Hawaii.

      I also wonder the source of your “fact” –

      “Malays are in fact, immigrants (or “Pendatangs”) themselves thousands of years ago from the North, the land of Yunan somewhere south of Mongolia and middle China. Malays are the Mongoloids who travelled to the peninsula way long after the Negroids have travelled from the land of Africa.”

      Kindly note that there have been theories and hypotheses postulated since a long time ago but that the book above mentioned contains practically all of the relevant ones and includes the latest – the book being published only in 2009.

      And that it is published by a respectable and reputable organisation, readily considered as the authority on the history of this country. The Historical Society of Malaysia was founded since British colonial times to provide views other than those of colonialists and expatriates at that time written in the Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society (JMBRAS). It’s first President was Dato Mahmud and recent/ current membership/ Executive Committee includes reputable historians like Professor Emeritus Tan Sri Khoo Kay Kim and Professor Dato Zainal Abidin Wahid, Malay Studies Professor Dato Mohd Taib Othman.

      You are mistaken in referring to the Malays as “pendatang”, the Bumiputeras as “so-called” and in the criteria for the use of the term Bumiputera. The book is available at the Muzium Negara and at the Historical Society of Malaysia’s own 5-storey building, opposite Institute Jantung Negara, Jalan Tun Razak, KL @ RM 90.

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      • Then you have one Orang Asli Semenanjung Malaysia blog coordinator Tijah Nyok Chopil “slamming Tun Dr Mahathir” for “his statement that the Orang Asli do not have more right than the Malays to claim Malaysia”, according to theSundaily.com.

        And you have the new President of the Bar Council egging her on when she spoke at a press conference at the Bar Council yesterday. theSundaily says: “In support of (the organisation she claims to represent), the Bar Council president Lim Chee Wee said there was ample historical evidence that the indigenous people have continuously occupied Peninsular Malaysia for thousands of years with their own form of self-government, customs, traditions and practices.” The “historical evidence” is not stated. He is a lawyer but is he a qualified historian, too? What basis is he talking on, what authorities does he use to arrive at that opinion, I wonder. I’m not belittling the Orang Asli but I have not heard of their “thousands of years with their own form of self-government”.

        The Bar Council’s position can be expected – TDM had once said they should be putting their own house in order, pointing out the many instances of criminal breach of trust and other crimes committed by their members (a recent case involves the murder of cosmetics millionaire Sosilawati). As Bar Council members, they are also members of the Law, of the Court, aren’t they?

        As the Opposition has been exploiting the Orang Asli land issue and instigating them to demonstrate etc and the Sagong Tari case reached the Court of Appeal, the Government should take a stand on the matter of the origin of the Malays, and the fact that the Orang Asli, the Proto Malays, are also of the same Rumpun Melayu as the Constitutional Malays, who are otherwise referred to as deutero Malays.

        The long-established and well respected Historical Society of Malaysia has made available the basis for determining the origin of the Malays in their recently published “Tamadun Alam Melayu” (The Malay Civilization) book. That the Malays have originated from the Gugusan Pulau Pulau Melayu (the Malay Archipelago) about 5,000 years ago, and that they have been moving in and out of the Gugusan Pulau Pulau Melayu for thousands of years, including Semananjong Tanah Melayu, should be adopted as the origin of the Malays. As has been pointed out, prominent and respectable professors in the relevant fields have been and are members of the Historical Society of Malaysia, some, like Professor Emeritus Tan Sri Khoo Kay Kim, being members of the Executive Committee.

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      • Tuan/Puan Dot,
        Susah la nak argue along this line… if you extrapolate the argument then we can certainly say the Chinese in mainland China are not really the original people there, nor the Indians in the Indian subcon, nor the mat salleh in Europe, etc., etc., because the FACT is we are all of ONE race, from Adam & Eve… (you can watch the program tracing the human DNA despite the seemingly various races among humans in Nat. Geo.)… the “fact” is there is no such thing as the “original people” of any place on this earth la… so how far can this line of argument go?

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        • Mr Dharan Sea

          I totally and absolutely agree……the fact that nobody by him/herself magically appear to a country soil and the fact that every single human beings come from Nabi Adam dan Hawa.

          ………………..

          But surely when you have settled for more than 1000 years in a place or a region like the Malay archipelago (e.g. the Melayu) and have setup a reputable and historically acknowledged government, surely you are entitle to claim that this is where you are originally from.

          Heck even those that settled here for a merely 100 years like those NONS with embarrassingly sub par Malaysian language has the audacity to claim that they are originally from here.

          Now let us look in another perspective;

          I am quite sure that most of the people have only been living in their current house for not more than 20 years and they called their house as their HOME.

          This is how the Malay feel about Malaysia, it is their home……this is how the English feel about England, it is their home……this is how the Chinese feel about China, it is their home……

          That is why when the Malayan Union was proposed, the Malays rise and revolt because the British was trying to violate their home! Where is the NONs back then? Nowhere to be heard?….why? Because it is NOT THEIR HOME!

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        • Before Tuan/Puan Dot replies, I’d like to ask what Dhahran Sea is trying to say. Is he saying that the Malays can’t say that they originate from the Malay Archipelago, rather than Yunan or even Taiwan, like one theory says, which was current some time ago but has since been debunked.

          I have read that Historical Society-published book and it says so and that’s what Dot was saying.

          Why susah to argue along that line? It’s nothing to do with China and the origins of the Chinese are different, and are not being discussed here.

          If you go along the Adam and Eve line, then we should not have nations and all nations should abandon the United Nations, man.

          The 190 (or thereabout) nations of this world have been recognized as members of the UN, established as independent political and sovereign entities. We are discussing the origins of people. No doubt there has been tremendous mixing of blood over the tens of thousands of years of human existence but up to a point in history, they are accepted as people originating from the political boundaries that their nations are recognised as.

          The Malays, for lack of adequate research in the past, were said to have come from Yunan or Taiwan but there are now sufficient research showing that they originate from the Gugusan Pulau Pulau Melayu.

          And who is talking about “original people”? They are talking about the “origins” of the Malays, brother. Whether there were Watusis or Hontots in this area before is not relevant; that does not preclude the Malays originating in this area. And Idris above talks about the proto-Malay Orang Aslis and the deutero-Malay Malays being of the same Rumpun Melayu. Tun Dr Mahathir has some Indian blood but the fact is that he is a Malay, constitutionally or otherwise – his mother’s side were all Malays, only his father part Malay.

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      • Well, you can list your bibliography if you want. My source is not any book but conversations with various veterans who read a lot. Basically my understanding is that, originally, there are 3 basic types of humans, ie. The Caucasian stock which includes Aryans, The Mongoloids which includes Oriental and Malaepolynesian stock and The Negroids. Based on some biological research (some documentary on Australian TV about 10 years ago – cannot remember), these 3 are identifiable by the cross section of their hair: Caucasian showing elipse, Mongoloids showing round and Negroid showing variable shapes. I don’t intend to get all technical but I find it amusing that you are using this forum to discuss technical findings rather than the subject matter that jebatmustdie is trying to convey.

        Regardless of the technical sources, etc, the spirit of my comments to jebatmustdie is actually to condemn those who use racial sentiments for their political agenda. That is the message….. not all those technicalities.

        Lady, take a break okay,…. I am not a Thesis researcher like you. Chill!🙂

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        • …. and by the way, the concept of trio-Human types (Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid); “Pendatang” and “Bumiputra” are all depending on TIME. The trio-Human concept is way way beyond your 5,000 years reference. The “Pendatang” is also time-relative whereby if you draw a line at around 1,000 A.D., the Chinese can be regarded as “Pendatang” but if you draw a line, say at 5,000 B.C., the Malays can be regarded as “Pendatang”. Lastly, “Bumiputra” is also time-relative. – if you measure the definition, say around 1,000 A.D., the Malays can be Bumiputras whereas if it was 5,000 B.C, then only the Negritos are Bumiputras I’d imagine. I just want to make things clear that the core message here is that “facts” used in discussions can never have conclusive evidence as far as history is concerned in areas with grey findings – hence nobody is wrong and nobody is right. Again I would like to point out that my main message is that “Racial Politics is wrong!” regardless of whether I have the bibliography for the so called facts….. it’s read between the lines thing yea,… and my understanding is that jebatmustdie is more of political forum rather than history….. we can create a History blog if you want.. let me know… I’ll get some History professor from UM to create one. Cheers🙂

          Like

        • Mr Kopihangtuah

          I acknowledge and mostly agree with the matter of the subject that you are trying to convey.

          However I couldn’t resist the urge to response to your technical points.

          You stated that you didn’t want to get into the technical or historical bit but yet you further extend your argument with the concept/theory of the three human races classification group i.e. the Mongoloids, Caucasian and the Negritos.

          I am not sure where you get that “original races” fact from; but as far as my reading goes, there is no strong evidence and no stated fact that the human races originated from three different races whatever given timelines it maybe.

          To date, There are only one strong evidence or proposition that all human races originated from one single races traces back somewhere in Africa.

          FYI,

          The outdated proposition above (of that three classification of races) was and is a subject of heated debate among the anthropologist themselves. Some even claimed that such proposition was born as a result of the tendency of the white people supremacist trying to differentiate themselves from other races i.e. being equivalent to Caucasians (white), mongoloids (yellow) and Negritos (Black).

          Further to the above proposition, other anthropologist found that such physical classification as incorrect and arguable as there exist no clear differentiation between races and in fact the changes of physical appearances of any given races seems to be continuous across the geography. For example some Indian has the facial definition of a Caucasian but yet is black and the aborigines of the American continent is not yellow and not black but more to red-brownish and has significantly different physical appearance than the negritos with fine curly hair etc etc.

          Some anthropologist like Blumenback (1775) further extend the human races into 5 classification i.e. Eithiopian (Black), Caucasian (white), American (red), Mongolian (yellow) and Malayan (brown).

          Further to this date, this type of classification is still expanding with some anthropologist like Haeckel (1873) listed up to 12 distinctively different type of original races.

          And as a conclusion, I should say that none of this sort of proposition can be relied upon in absolute terms and at best would just be a theory.

          And by the way,

          Yes this is not a primarily historical forum or technical one but…….
          the political point that you are trying to drive to the readers is supplemented with your technical fact. Therefore your technical bit is just as important as your political point. Because if one fail than the other would indirectly fail as well.

          The fact that your intention was good (and I agree) does not negate you from checking your technical points or stating a reasonably accurate technical point. The least that you could do is to refer them back to the source such as to the literature that you took it from or the “veterens” that you have spoken to.

          No hard feelings

          Like

          • Ikhwan my man,.. aiyooooo. Do I have to endure this debacle? Ok,.. here goes:

            1. It’s Negroid. Not Negrito. So there are 3: (1) Caucasian, (2) Mongoloid, and (3) Negroid. Negrito tu yg kay hutan Pahang dude! Negrito is from Negroid. Negroes pun from Negroid. Aboriginals also from Negroid

            2. I agree that points backed by technical info should be supported by its sources. Ok, here’s the story: The fact that I call myself “kopihangtuah” means I do not want people to know who I am right? Since the source is someone I call “Bapak!!”, yeah my Dad!, I wouldn’t want to expose that old man’s name lah kan…. he is 75 years old and a historian since before World Wor 2 okay. I trust him. He also studied loads of such history in his life time while he was in England during those days where you travel to England using Ship rather than aeroplane.

            3. I actually like your concept of 5 classification i.e. Eithiopian (Black), Caucasian (white), American (red), Mongolian (yellow) and Malayan (brown). The thing is, these 5 came from the 3. Americans (red) are actually the same stock as the eskimos and guess what,.. they are the same stock as the Mongolians and Chinese, ie Mongoloids. Mongolians (yellow) are, by its name obviously, Mongoloids and Malays (brown) are actually hybrid of Negroid and Mongoloids. You mentioned Indian somewhere,.. well, they are hybrids of Caucasian and Negroids. Arabs and Jews are from caucasian stock. However, all 3 basically came from Adam’s variety of kids. Biblically, although no records to prove, after the flood, during the Babel tower days, these diffirent “coloured” humans got cursed into speaking different languages… so either my trio or your 5 classification or Dot’s whatever theory, all possibly true in its own ways. There are a lot of theories on how these different classification intertwined each other but the one that I seems to be interested in is that: The Negroids travelled the earth first from Africa all the way to Australia. Then the Mongoloids travelled from North East to the West vis North Pole and down South into the American land. Some travelled South to the Malaepolynesian archipelago… that is us, the so called Malays. The last to travel the world were the Caucasians – they settled as Arabs, Hebrews, Celtic/Vikings/Gauls/Aryans/Balkans/etc (Europeans), Aryas (Indian), Persians (Iran), Babylonians (Iraq). Anyways, these are all theories read by the 75 year old man.

            4. Damn you!🙂 You got me started on technical stuff again. This is not what I wanted to blog about! Duhhh! Please be reminded that my main intention,.. well let’s rephrase it,.. my ONLY intention is to support jebatmustdie in his war against politicians who uses ethnic sentiments as propaganda to twist people’s mind. So let us debate about that then bloody Mongoloids and stuff okay? Do you care whether you are Mongoloids or Negroid? As long as you are not an Android, that is good enough right?

            I enjoyed arguing but ya,.. please do not detour from the main spirit of this particular blogpost.

            p/s: jebatmustdie,.. if you are reading this, aiyoo please lah sound sikit commentators lu ni semua. Kasi hingaq gua punya minda🙂

            * kopihangtuah

            Like

            • Yes kopihangtuah my man,

              Here we go. Let us get deeper into this debacle.

              P/s JMD feel free to stop us if you feel so and sorry for the severe detour from the main topic

              Now coming back to the point of debate;

              Point no 1:

              Aiseh typo error….Negroids jadi Negritos…tak pasal pasal aku kena hentam balik🙂

              Fair enough… Sorry for my unintentional mistake.

              My intended word was actually Negroids not the Negritos of the hutan Pahang etc. Huh you being “nit picking” eh!

              Ok has to be careful with my typo this time…..

              2nd point:

              Well you dont have to tell the name of your source if you dont want to. With all due respect to your dad; Wouldnt it be better when you start presenting your three (3) original races “facts” that you would at least begin with “according to my daddy, a credible historian since the world war 1 who has been to England via ship, the races started with three bla bla bla…….” this way dude, people can decide the credibility of your stated facts. No need to go down further into this debacle. and by the way, I am not sure what has the “fact credibility” got to do with your daddy went to England long time ago using ship? The fact that your daddy got the information at the time when people were still using ship to England indicate that the points or the fact that he got it from is truly is outdated dude. Now is the year 2011, you ought to independently read the latest source rather than continue relying from your dad. And one more thing, nobody would have thought that the source is your daddy had you just put his name down unless off course if you tell us that the source is also your daddy.

              3rd point

              Please correct your mistake or misunderstanding. Read back what I wrote carefully. I did not endorse any of this sort of races type classification be it three, five or twelve or more classification. So please dont say that the 5 races theory is my concept. To me none of them can be relied upon including your three races proposition. Read back my conclusion above. There are no concrete evidence with this sort of thing similar to the famous evolution theory. Only Allah knows best.

              It is interesting to see your elaboration on the five races coming from the three supposedly original races. In the same spirit as Dot, I would like to ask you; Would you mind stating where you got this fact from? Ohh let me guess, from your daddy as well?

              And when you say that the Indian that I refer to is the hybrid of Caucasian and Negroids, I couldnt resist to ask myself that; if this is the case, why is it in America nowadays where lot of black (presumably come from the Negroids) and white people (from the caucasian) who have married but yet none of their childrens look like the Indians that I mentioned? Why? Ohh you would probably say that this process would take millions of years like the evolution theory??? Perhaps in another millions year we would see a lot of Indians born by the Black and White mix in America.🙂

              Interestingly and easily, one could have spin the whole thing and came up with a whole new different theory. Why shouldnt I say that in the beginning there are actually only two races: the Arab and the Malay. From this two races; the arabs than breed two more races i.e. the whiter one become caucasian and the reddish one become the American native. While the Malay later also produce two more races, the darker one become Negroids and the yellowish one become Mongoloids. Amacam menarik tak my madeup story?

              To me personally, I think the Arab race came first and from there the Jewish and the Caucasian races were born. (Note: Just my guess)

              Point no 4:

              Yes. Totally agree with you. I dont care whether you are Mongoloids or Androids. But I deeply care when somebody call the Melayu – Pendatang.

              Specifically to your point: “to support jebatmustdie in his war against politicians who uses ethnic sentiments as propaganda to twist people’s mind;”

              I absolutely AGREE

              Like

              • Yo Ikhwan dude! I feel that the gaps of our arguments are getting narrower. That’s good. Ok let me explain in random points put forth by you.

                I refer to your comment “deeply care when somebody calls Melayu PENDATANG”. Here is the story. I am a Melayu. What I was trying to say is that the concept of “Pendatang” relates back to my theory where Malays travelled from the North, initially as Mongoloids; a concept that you do not agree. It’s ok. You are entitled to not agree. However, in spirit, you must not read that paragraph in isolation from the one after it. I print below my 2 paragraphs that should be read together:

                Malays are in fact, immigrants (or “Pendatangs”) themselves thousands of years ago from the North, the land of Yunan somewhere south of Mongolia and middle China. Malays are the Mongoloids who travelled to the peninsula way long after the Negroids have travelled from the land of Africa.

                But why are the Malays regarded as the so called “Bumiputra” (Sons of Earth) of peninsula and Borneo? Well, if I am not mistaken, there are a few criteria for which one must agree that they are sensible. They are:

                1. Majority ethnic group; and
                2. The ethnic that established the first effective government

                So, I hope you can see that what I was trying to do it actually to argue “for” Malays to be the rightful ethnic group as “Tuan” of this beloved peninsula. One must always argue both ways and come to a final conclusion that supports his or her believes.

                On my dad,.. hehehe let’s just leave the old man out of this debate shall we? He is a very rersourceful man. I admit, I am poor on bibliography but bro, ni bukan assignment university lah kan… this is blog for expression.. gimme a break ok. By the way, tak salah pakai rujukam lama even when there are new research materials. We still refer to old documents to guide us in our lives, such as Quran, Sejarah Melayu, Hikayat Hang Tuah, Although new findings may suggest different outcome, there is no conclusive evidence whether my Mongoloid theory or your… errr,…. whatever theory is correct. The main point is, I was just building up a story to say that eventhough Malays come from elsewhere thousands of years ago, they do qualify as Bumiputra,.. hence why I got upset you people debating about technicalities rather than subject matter “Sakmongkol being racist”. But it’s ok… clarity is always needed when points are put across.

                Ok sorry for saying that the 5 classification is your theory.. I read your comments again – full of bibliographies… Good then. Thousand apologies.

                On the Indian bit,.. ya man… that is what I think. Don’t bloody ask me for bloody bibliography. If you don’t agree, don’t have to. Nobody asked you to. North India with sharp nose and straight nose and South India with flat nose and curly hair.. surely you must agree, even if slightly, that Caucasian and Negroids are in there somewhere? Whatever man,… I don’t have evidence. Just ponder on it.

                Your guess on the Arabs existence comes first not consistent with biblican records. Again don’t ask me for bibliographies but if you read Quran, Bible, Torah, those scriptures from the monotheists, Abraham (Ibrahim) was neither hebrew nor arab. From his first son, Ismail, came the arabs; and his 2nd son Isaac (Ishak), came the Hebrew (Jews). So what is Abraham? Well,.. not quite sure really but my GUESS is that, we can call him Assyrian or Mesopotamian, or babylonian, etc which are , in my GUESSING, would be the caucasian stock. So Arabs and Jews belong to the same stock as Babylonians/Assyrians/Mesoptamian. The christians originally were actually Hebrew but because they followed Jesus (Isa), they branched out into what we Muslims call as Nasrani.

                weii.. penatlah dah lah.. space pun dah narrow sangat dah ni. Chowlus.

                Like

                • Kopihangtuah

                  My sole purpose of debating/arguing is nothing but to hear for the more stronger argument. Nothing else

                  I have more to say actually with regard to your reply but I should reserve my writings specifically for people like TEMPAYAN or Frens of Jebat.

                  I have presented my points and so do you. I guess we shouldnt make more mess than it already is in this JMD blog.

                  Maybe we should continue this discussion over your blog instead? Maybe you can open one specific thread there to discuss this.

                  Please note that I didn’t read your argument in isolation. I read them in full. As I said earlier, I agree with the end points that you were trying to deliver but in the build up where you stated…. Malay mixed Indon…Malay mixed Siam etc etc…no “pure” malay…….then Malay is also pendatang…I couldnt find myself to agree with any of this. I think it rubs most of the people here the wrong way as well not just me.

                  The space is really getting narrow. I shall stop for now. The readers can decide for themselves on which of us have the stronger arguments.

                  I should say that I enjoyed this “discussion” and I am sorry for any harsh words and mistake that I have made.

                  Like

            • kopihangtuah,

              I am interested in this specific point of your’s or your dads narrative;

              “The Negroids travelled the earth first from Africa all the way to Australia. ……………………………………………….. The last to travel the world were the Caucasians – they settled as Arabs, Hebrews…….”

              I guess this is where we truly differ my friend. Your source (whatever or wherever it is that your dad got it from) conveniently without any strong evidence classified that those that travels from the African continent were already a three distinct races (i) negroids (ii) caucasian (iii) Mongoloids. And then the Negroids travel to Australia, the Mongoloids to South east etc etc….How true is this? No scientific evidence at all that could support this theory.

              You know what, The more recent DNA based mapping has shown that the ancient human migration can be traces back to Africa from ONE SINGLE RACES not from the THREE RACES as you have purported. Note that based on the study the DNA pools is a SINGLE identification not THREE distinct type of different DNA sets.

              It is more plausible that this single race travel outward and further produce this various races including the negroids, caucasian, mongoloids, malay, arabs etc etc. and is obvious based on this DNA mapping technique.

              Now let us look at your 2nd specific statement : “Then the Mongoloids …………………………………………….. Some travelled South to the Malaepolynesian archipelago… that is us, the so called Malays”.

              Mate, had you read the book suggested by Dot; the Tamadun Alam Melayu and based on the recent DNA mapping science of human migration; you would have known that there is a much stronger evidence that showed that the propagation of the Malay in the Malay Archipellago happen NORTHWARD not SOUTHWARD as your theory indirectly suggested. FYI, your theory is the basis of the suggestion that the Melayu migrated from Taiwan i.e. based on SOUTHWARD migration path.

              However you should take note that the current scientific DNA mapping data showed that the propagation actually occur in the opposite direction i.e. NORTHWARD which indicate that the Malay probably originated through the Sumatran, Borneo, Australia which is more resemblance of the Malay archipelago.

              Regards

              Like

              • Huhy? is this the same Ikhwan that made peace earlier now starting the debate again? Boy,… go take your debate elsewhere mate,.. I have no bibliographies as mentioned earlier,.. just pointers from discussions with old folks .. dude. By the way I didn’t say malays were from Taiwan. I said they were from North. But of course the THREE actually came from ONE,.. that I can agree. Cheers

                Like

                • Yes my boy kopihangtuah

                  Just got a few word of advise here.

                  Next time do read the comment DATE and TIME before you make yourself look silly even more.

                  Seriously, look at my posting above, the date of my comment is way before I wrote that last comment.

                  Cheers

                  Like

              • referring to : It is more plausible that this single race travel outward and further produce this various races including the negroids, caucasian, mongoloids, malay, arabs etc etc. and is obvious based on this DNA mapping technique.

                Sounds logical. hence ONE become THREE and further FIVE etc. There was a documentary 10 years ago in Australian TV that demonstrates the types of hair. Generally, if you cut (cross section), for Negroes/Aborigines etc, its a diverse shape-like. For Asians (Orientals, Polynesians), its round and for Middle Eastern and Europe, elipse. So that finding is what transpired the THREE categories. How I wish I can remember the name of the documentary,.. but I don’t. Nevertheless, will look for this book that Dot suggested.. whatsit called again? Tamadun Alam Melayu?

                I would also like to suggest you to look at biblical stories. Although not much can be concluded but the story of Noah’s children, of different colours and language, subsequent to the flood, during the tower of babel times, in the Middle east; may give a different perspective of how “race” came into being.

                Cheers

                Like

              • Ikhwan,

                There are too many comments of different sub columns. Got confused. Anyway, there is no more columns available to respond back to the question on whether there are 100% Melayu. You answered my question with questions!! haha. Clearly you are implying that my concern on whether there are any 100% Malays or not is a silly questions. My friend, that is how I wanted you to answer my question because it is relevant in the context of Tun M being Malay or not and relevant to my first comment to JMD on the various mix of Malays and other ethnic groups. Thank you. Your sarcasm actually works in my favour. Had you answered that there are still 100% pure Malays, then it would have started a whole new series of debate, which can be messy. When I am done reading Tamadun Alam Melayu, we can debate about Malay Origin elsewhere.

                Cheers

                Like

        • Neither am I, brother. And am a male. Won’t take a break until the wrong perceptions are righted. Readers must not be misled. Especially when your sources are merely “conversations” and yet you postulate “conversational hypotheses” about race, pendatang and such.

          With due respect to your father who you said is one of the conversationalists, perhaps at 70 yrs old, the knowledge he has may also be old. Do read the “Tamadun Alam Melayu (Malay Civilisation)” book published by the Malaysian Historical Society in 2009, brother. It’s available at the Muzium Negara or the Historical Society building in Jalan Tun Razak, opposite IJN. I guarantee you’ll have a different perspective after reading that book.

          Btw, are you not being political yourself when saying “the spirit of my comments .. is actually to condemn those who use racial sentiments for their political agenda”? And you “condemn”, my dear chap, when others only criticize! And what political agenda, what technicalities are you talking, old boy? People are talking about Sakmongkol and Tun Dr Mahathir whose race has been questioned, comprendo?

          Sorry amigo, as of this writing, readers rate you 1-2 for, 8 against. No need to call for History Professors la – the Malaysian Historical Society has a string of Professors in History, Anthropology, Archeology, Linguistics, Malay Studies, etc among their Ordinary and Executive Committee Members, including eminent historian Professor Emeritus Tan Sri Khoo Kay Kim. As has been said, they would have been shouting for 2 years since 2009 if anything in that book is out of line.

          Like

          • Neither are you what? Not sure which ones of my comments are you referring to. By the way, I reffered to “lady” because I was rebutting “Dot” not you… but it’s ok. I enjoy debating anyway.

            Bro, penat lah gua nak type balik.. Can I refer you to my reply to Ikhwan above on my pointers on “Pendatang” vs “Bumiputra”.

            Also refer to my reply to Ikhwan above on my “Dad”. I take note of your suggestion to read Tamadun Alam Melayu .

            Bro, I really mean it when I say that I CONDEMN those who uses ethnic sentiments to creat political stunt. Sakmongkol is saying that Tun M is a liar because he has Indian blood but preaches Melayu. That is wrong dude. Deserved to be CONDEMNED. Critisizing is an understatement for my disagreement on what Sakmongkol is saying. Isn’t that what the article is all about? So I don’t understand where you are coming from. Have I misunderstood what JMD is trying to convey? If you think I have, then please clarify ya.

            It’s ok bro.. people can vote againts me for my writing.. no worries.. its a free world… but that is what amuses me. My writing actually supports what JMD is saying in terms of ethnic politics but instead,.. you guys prefer to debate over my lack of bibliography on theories whom no one can give conclusive evidence whether it is right or wrong. So why debate on such matter? My comment was my thoughts to JMD. So let’s talk about what JMD is trying to convey. Don’t steal the limelight away from him. If the topic of discussion was say, “What is a Malay?” then oklah kot tapi topic dia sekarang “Sakmongkol calling Tun M a liar”.

            Like

            • kopihangtuah,

              The reply columns are indeed getting very narrow but replies have to be made when what you say calls for it, dude.

              Especially when there are readers ignorant of the Constitutional definition of a Malay or rudely calls Tun Dr Mahathir mamak, when TDM only has Indian blood in his grandfather, yet his grandmother was a Malay and his father married a full blooded Malay and his mother’s family were all Malays.

              Like ikhwan, I also “deeply care when somebody calls Melayu PENDATANG”. Especially when you are a Melayu yourself. It now appears that the problem is your manner of saying it, or your method of presentation, and, despite your further explanation, some more rebuttal appears to be in order.

              You need to realize that the general perception is that “pendatang” refers to the nons and when you want to put out “my theory where Malays travelled from the North, initially as Mongoloids”, implying that Malays are also pendatang, you jolly well have to provide some arguments based on scientifically proven facts, quoting authoritative sources, research or studies carried out in a scientific manner. The Malays have been here all along and any suggestion otherwise must be bloody well substantiated and proven. This is a serious subject and cannot be discussed in a by-the-way manner, just based on feelings, looking at long nose or flat noses or my father said so.

              Of course everybody “is entitled to not agree” but surely we cannot simply say things on a serious subject in a public forum such as this and just let readers disagree. And when Dot asked you for your sources of information or basis of your opinion, you should not be offended, as you appeared to be, by asking him to “Chill”, referring to him as a lady when you do not know that for a fact, and wanting to call a group of professors etc.

              Why need to postulate that “Malays are in fact, immigrants (or “Pendatangs”) when you don’t have solid facts and authoritative sources of information to base your opinion on? Why don’t you read the “Tamadun Alam Melayu” Historical Society of Malaysia book recommended by Dot and come in to argue against the findings in that book? Merely saying Malays came “thousands of years ago from the North, the land of Yunan somewhere south of Mongolia and middle China. Malays are the Mongoloids who travelled to the peninsula way long after the Negroids have travelled from the land of Africa”, in the face of the linguistic, anthropological research, archeological excavations and other findings stated in the book, is not a smart thing to do, is it?

              If it is an ordinary and non-sensitive subject, fine, you can say such things as “if I am not mistaken”, but you can’t use the word “so-called” on the Malays/ Bumiputeras without incurring the wrath of those passionate about their roots and their race.

              Me being one, I’ll say you are indeed mistaken and your so-called criteria for the use of the term Bumiputera is hogwash. It’s not a matter of being the majority, dude, it’s a matter of the Malays and the Bumiputeras being here, moving in and out of this Malay Archipelago which includes Semenanjong Tanah Melayu, since 5,000 years ago. You even call “Bumiputra” as “Sons of Earth” when others use the term “Sons of the Soil”. Where have you been all this while, Earth man, and I suppose you you wouldn’t know the difference between Earth and soil, would you.

              Good that you were “trying to .. argue “for” Malays to be the rightful ethnic group as “Tuan” of this beloved peninsula” but do use the proper and acceptable basis for doing so, man. And if it is not acceptable and an authoritative book is recommended, do at least check it out. Then we can have a meaningful and rational discussion here.

              It’s not so much a question of bibliography (the word means a long list of reference books) but a matter of facts and authoritative sources of information used in your arguments or facts to base your opinion on. Remember that “facts” are not facts until and unless established, otherwise they remain as mere opinions. Some one has pointed out the evolution of facts – from mere opinion or thinking to hypothesis, later when accepted and proven true, becomes theory, and only after years of testing and arguments by the public, especially the scientific community, does a theory becomes accepted as a fact.

              Note that even Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity was questioned by fellow scientists for years and that even a genius like Einstein also admits his mistake. And Newton’s ideas on gravity that existed as a “fact” for hundreds of years have recently been thrown out by the findings of astrophysicists that gravity is due to the ever expanding nature of the universe. Have you read such books as “Stephen Hawking’s Universe” or watched the many documentaries on Discovery Channel etc? Again, it’s not a matter of bibiliography, dude, it’s a need for reference points so that we can avoid arguing without the proper basis and become anarchic.

              No doubt “ni bukan assignment university .. this is blog for expression ..” but we have to be responsible in expressing our views, haven’t we? What “gimme a break” you want, except perhaps a break to read up the recommended books in order to discuss the views you put out meaningfully. Btw, have you read Tun Dr Mahathir’s book that is the subject matter of this post?

              What “tak salah pakai rujukam lama” are you talking about, dude? By all means use old references but if you mean your old man as reference, please tell us if he is an authority on history or Malay culture so that the points you make may have some credibility. Authority on such things are usually books, so do tell us the books he has written (not intending to belittle his knowledge, of course).

              Qur’an is Faith and we should not mix faith with discussions of facts on historical matters. Do use Sejarah Melayu, Hikayat Hang Tuah, etc as reference but do provide the quotes. That is necessary because you yourself say “there is no conclusive evidence whether my Mongoloid theory .. ” and you are arguing against the tide. What tide it is, read the Tamadun Alam Melayu book.

              Your “main point” is a moot point, man – the “building up a story to say that eventhough Malays come from elsewhere thousands of years ago, they do qualify as Bumiputra ..”. What “qualify as Bumiputera” are you talking when they are in fact Bumiputeras, “sons of the soil”. And, for goodness sake, “why got upset” when people want to provide the correct basis for discussion? Nobody “debates about technicalities” but merely point to the research findings explained in the relevant and authoritative book. And the “subject matter” under discussion is not about “Sakmongkol being racist” but about Sakmongkol creating lies – clearly said so by JMD in the first few sentences of his post.

              Have a good day, my friend, and do read up authoritative writings and quote them as the basis of your opinions especially when you express non-mainstream and controversial views.

              Like

              • Oh man,… all got out of context. Okay perhaps the progression of arguments off tangent but the basic point is that:
                1. Whilst one can say that people can call Malays Pendatang, there are arguments that suggest Malays are rightful Bumiputra. Son of Soil or Son of Earth, either way, sounds the same.. but perhaps earth sound less crude to me.
                2. I am against ethnic propaganda
                3. yes I have Tun’s book
                Cheers

                Like

              • Are you labelling me “ignorant of the Constitutional definition of a Malay”? I think eventhough I haven’t read the constitution thoroughly, I do have adequate understanding after reading the Malay Dilemma some 20 years ago.

                When you say “rudely calls Tun Dr Mahathir mamak”. I hope you are not referring to me coz I am actually against that. Hope you did not mistaken me with someone else.

                PENDATANG seems to be the sensitive word here. Even if you believed my theory of Malays coming from North as part of the Mongoloid migration, the Malays always have the safety net of the constitutional definition of Bumi. Again, as I pointed out the 2 criteria 1. majority and 2. Forming first effective government. Actually there are more criteria but these 2 are the prominent ones. Source of facts? Well, this time not the old man called “Bapak”. It is actually from the Malay Dilemma as well.

                I am Melayu but not 100%. I have 1/16th chinese and 1/16th Indian in me. So does that makes me not Malay? What about the 14/16th? So I do feel for Tun M coz in school, people used the word “Mamak” conveniently on me… but have always taken it as a joke with no hard feelings.

                Perhaps you are right in saying that my manner of saying it, or method of presentation, are not debate proof. But I am sincere in trying to convey these 3 messages:

                1. Over the years, it’s difficult to find 100% pure Malays

                2. Therefore, difficult to argue “being Malay” from biological or geography or historical points of views – given that there are many theories around.

                3. Hence, Tun M’s Malay Dilemma provides perfect alternative to measure your “ethnicity” – referring to the 3 criteria mentioned earlier.

                Points 2 and 3 above, I believe should remain as constants whereas point 1 above is where there can be many theories such as mine, Dot’s, Ikhwan’s, Tamadun Alam Melayu, biblical, historical, reseraches, documentaries etc.. whatever but the core focus (as intended initially) is to settle on points 2 and 3.

                The word PENDATANG certainly made some spark. And the possibility of it can be sensitive to many people. I guess that is why Tun M created those criteria in Malay Dilemma so that if people can conclude that Malays are PENDATANG, then you have safety nets.

                Whilst it is a serious subject in a public forum such as this, arguments that act as devil’s advocate makes you think more. Imagine if I wasn’t a malay. If I was a Non debating over this. At least you have had some training (with all bibliographies lined up) –🙂 cool bro

                Oh, I wasn’t offended. I was amused when people wanted to debate about ethnic history – bcoz I was waiting to debate with supporters of Sakmongkol.

                Called Dot a lady because I tot it’s short form for Dorothy, possible a sarawakian bumi lady. Ok then. If he’s a He, then He will it be. Sorry.

                Me wanting to call a group of professors etc…. that’s just sarcasm,.. to make life more colourful… since everybody is so uptight about having proper references etc. It’s like going for a guitar class to learn a cool jam but instead the instructor starts talking about What notes cannot appear in certain scales, etc.

                Agree that the use of the words “in fact” was not politically or factually correct – thanks for the tips

                I will read “Tamadun Alam Melayu” Historical Society of Malaysia book recommended by Dot.

                Sons of Earth or Sons of Soil. Both metaphorically referring to human of the land. Of course literally Bumi = Earth. Earth is often used in English to refer to soil but with lower case “e” instead of “E”. So I think linguistic wise, it’s ok to use earth which also means soil. So yeahh, that one, I kinda disagree with your myopic views. Of course Putra = Prince = Sons

                By the way, I have read Stephen Hawking’s but not “Universe” – I read “Brief History of Time” and certainly watched many documentaries when I was a student 17 years ago. Now no time coz working late hours.

                I am reading Tun’s book but have not yet finished coz I have like 3 or 4 books that I am reading all concurrently.

                On the “Old Reference” bit, was referring to australian documentary that I watched 20 years ago. It’s old. Agree that there are new documentaries but that does not make new ones more correct than old ones. There are many examples of the use of old reference – suc as our own history which is based on literature such as Hikayat Hang Tuah, Sejarah Melayu, etc. as you have mentioned it and as what I have mentioned earlier to Ikhwan (I think)

                Qur’an is Faith but we should consider it in any of our discussions. Sometimes it appears to be irrelevant but it is relevant. Difficult to demonstrate on the subject matter that we are discussing. Best example is if we were arguing about humans originating from Monkeys. Quran would suggest otherwise – just an example.

                Why the use of “qualify as Bumiputera” is considered wrong? If you agree with Tun M’s definition of bumiputra, you will realise that “qualification” is probably the word to use when applying those criteria… unless you disagree with the Malay Dilemma by Tun M. Do you?

                Oh ya I forgot, you are a strong believer that the Malays never did come from the North, hence you used the words “they are in fact Bumiputeras”.

                I wasn’t upset because people want to provide the correct basis for discussion. I was upset because I was keen to debate with supporters of Sakmongkol. Instead, I have to debate about ethnic history.

                You too have a good day. Since you are full of stamina in all these stuff, do visit my blog. It’s relatively new and have no commentators – still a virgin blog. Not so much politics but touches various aspects of life which does include politics. Can sure use some debates to jump start the blog activity: http://www.kopihangtuah.blogspot.com

                Cheers

                Like

                • Thanks but no thanks, mate. I won’t want to discuss in your blog because hardly any visitors there. Have learnt a bit from the nons – mesti berkira, ada audience, ada beri masa. Business is business, they say.

                  Because you have tried to dispute the Malays originating from the Malay Archipelago and dared suggest in this well-read and respectable-readers’ blog that the Malays may be called pendatang, I must try to abuse your unsubstantiated but cakap-kedai-kopi “theory” in this blog as well.

                  It’s impossible to have a discussion with you, man. You just put out “theories” based on hunches, conversations, even on TDM’s book, Malay Dilemma, written some 30 years ago, when there are specialists in Malay Studies, History, linguistics, anthropology, archeology etc putting out views based on scientifically conducted research and academic studies.

                  And you doggedly disregard people’s advice and pointers, kept on jumping in with whatever comes into your head, this theory and that theory of your own, on a subject that you had not realized (until your last comment) is sensitive, quoting no authority for your sources of information or basis of your opinion.

                  I’m in fact no longer discussing your points or “theories” here but merely pointing out to readers that your statement that the Malays can be called pendatang is based on out-dated findings, and your opinions largely nonsense and hogwash.

                  Sorry to have to repeat what you said – nobody left any comment or want to discuss in your blog, despite being, what, 1-2 years already? Have you ever wondered why?

                  I might entertain your comments a little more after you have read fully that recently published Malaysian Historical Society book, Tamadun Alam Melayu.

                  You should also read the Early History Volume of The Encyclopedia of Malaysia, edited by the Archeologist, Professor Dr Nik Hassan Shuhaimi, published in 1998. The articles there included those contributed by academics at UM, UKM, National University of Singapore, University of Hawaii etc, again quoting research and academic studies scientifically carried out over the years.

                  Not “discussing technical” (whatever that statement of yours means) or talking bibliography”, man, but just pointing out that they are not kedai kopi but academically-based and reliable kind of discussions on the early history of this country.

                  Like

                • Your problem may be you’re reading all 4 books at the same time, mate.

                  No wonder you get jumbled up in your thinking and unable to differentiate e.g between Earth and soil.

                  Set your priorities, brader. Focus on completing one, after that, the other.

                  Since you want to jump into here discussing race and pendatang every so often, you should leave the 4 books aside, rush to buy the Tamadun Alam Melayu book and concentrate on it, come in here to tell “your new theories” based on the research findings on the Malays explained in the book.

                  I would love to read your views after you read that book.

                  Like

      • …. and by the way, the concept of trio-Human types (Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid); “Pendatang” and “Bumiputra” are all depending on TIME. The trio-Human concept is way way beyond your 5,000 years reference. The “Pendatang” is also time-relative whereby if you draw a line at around 1,000 A.D., the Chinese can be regarded as “Pendatang” but if you draw a line, say at 5,000 B.C., the Malays can be regarded as “Pendatang”. Lastly, “Bumiputra” is also time-relative. – if you measure the definition, say around 1,000 A.D., the Malays can be Bumiputras whereas if it was 5,000 B.C, then only the Negritos are Bumiputras I’d imagine. I just want to make things clear that the core message here is that “facts” used in discussions can never have conclusive evidence as far as history is concerned in areas with grey findings – hence nobody is wrong and nobody is right. Again I would like to point out that my main message is that “Racial Politics is wrong!” regardless of whether I have the bibliography for the so called facts….. it’s read between the lines thing yea,… and my understanding is that jebatmustdie is more of political forum rather than history….. we can create a History blog if you want.. let me know… I’ll get some History professor from UM to create one. Cheers

        Like

            • kopihangtuah,
              The whole group is only obsessed with “malay muslim” race (first time i heard of this race), bumiputera (to be honest, how many bumiputera in Sarawak/sabah really treated as the same status as the peninsular malays), special position (and they will use ISA and sedition to threaten meaningful debate).

              I just have a very simple question in mind, does the Quran approve of such thinking?

              At the end of the day, it’s is all about can’t lose power (read UMNO), malay is at threat. So i wonder, what threat? Is it UMNO at the risk of losing power or malays are going to be persecuted?

              Like

              • jebat’s fren,

                Your choice of a name shows you have bad intentions, don’t you? Jebat was a traitor, in the name of avenging a fellow warrior, he went on a rampage, killing innocent civilians. You chose the name because you like the treachery and want to be treacherous, don’t you? What a bloke!

                You want to put the Malays down, the Establishment comprising mainly of Malays thrown asunder, you use and exploit every available opportunity to do so.

                So, you shoot like a loose canon, saying “The whole group is only obsessed with “malay muslim” race”, laughed at the use of that terminology, you try to instigate by saying “to be honest, how many bumiputera in Sarawak/sabah really treated as the same status as the peninsular malays”, made a snide remark at the “special position” and wildly accuse “they will use ISA and sedition to threaten meaningful debate”.

                All these without substantiation, proofs, details, facts and figures. How seditious, even subversive, you are. You give the impression of belonging the so-called malaysian malaysia crowd, hogging the nasty Lee Kuan Yew-originated slogan that was and still is subversive to the Special Position of the Malays and the Bumiputeras of Sabah and Sarawak. Wanting equality without acknowledging the Special Position is subversive to that Special Position.

                No, you don’t “have a very simple question in mind”, but you do have that nasty, chauvinistic and racist thinking of laughing at and putting down the Malays, and even dared to use the Qur’an by asking if the Qur’an approves of such thinking, when you have no clue about the Muslim Holy Book.

                You come out with your true colours when saying “At the end of the day, it’s is all about can’t lose power (read UMNO), malay is at threat”. Yes, what threat is it actually, you treacherous fellow? Do ponder over it. Or is it one that is conceived by you as existing when in fact it does not? Or you are expressing guilty conscience or a fear of being threatened because you continuously are malicious, seditious and subversive to UMNO whose leaders had agreed to your citizenship at Merdeka? Or you feel guilty conscious at being seditious and subversive and try to pre-empt possible attempts at being hauled into court or placed in Kamunting under ISA. Hence you keep barking at the Sedition Act and the ISA, even accusing people of threatening you with those laws.

                Are you not being seditious when saying “malays are going to be persecuted”?

                Just use your head for a while, ponder a little at what you write from time to time and see if you don’t deserve the Sedition Act or ISA. And this is not a threat but a friendly advice, you DAP goon kind. Ungrateful and non Constitution-respecting bloke.

                Like

                • All hiding behing the ISA law to surpress voices from the nons. When the UMNO linked group speaks seditiously and behave like monsters, nothing will happen. When the malays from PAS/PKR speak, it’s also considered seditious. So, everything is about the survival of UMNO but need to hide behind the race skirt.

                  When we non speak, it’s treacherous, seditious and bla bla. When you speak, well spoken, justified and fair minded.

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                  • You get what you say, dude.

                    And my name is ISA.

                    Respect the Constitution and live by it fully la. Then we’ll have no problem with you.

                    Like

                  • Forgot to say –

                    Do you realize that the title of this blog is JEBAT MUST DIE.

                    For the heinous crimes he did in old Melaka.

                    Jebat’s friends who talk indicating a character like him are also despicable.

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              • you are right. when we talk about muslim, we ought not to equate to malays. when we talk about bumi, we ought not confine to only malays. Quran doesn’t promote ethnicity. And yes, both malays and umno afraid of losing power. nothing to do with muslim (the losing power part) – my thoughts that is

                Like

              • Hi Jebat’s Fren

                You are an opportunist aren’t you? I have actually anticipated that either you or that Tempayan fella would join in to exacerbate the matter among the Melayu.

                First of all I have long wanted to ask you this: Why are you using the nickname Jebat’s fren? I presumed that you wanted to imply that because the Hang Jebat fought against a “tyrant” king and so do you, fighting against the “tyrant Melayu” who presumably have been subjecting you to “unthinkable” discrimination?; and therefore you wanted or claimed to be his (Jebat) friend?

                Did you read the whole Hang Jebat story? Do you know that he died with his dearest friends attending to him? Do you know who they are? Yes they are the Hang Tuah, Hang Lekiu, Hang Lekir. Yes he did transgress the line but the fact remains that his dearest friend were still those four celebrated Pahlawan Melayu.

                Now the question is who are you to be Jebat’s fren??? Cermin sikit muka tu dulu! Hidung tak mancung pipi tersorong sorong!

                Hang Jebat will obviously disprove you of being one of his friends. I can guarantee you of this. If Hang Jebat is still alive this day, he would have run AMOK seeing the condition of the Melayu and the arrogant ungrateful NONS like you. He would have slashed and chopped you and your kind into pieces.

                You should be thankful that most of the Melayu are still patient, calm following the footstep of Hang Tuah. Had they have the explosive nature of Hang Jebat, we wouldn’t have this dialogue here mate, because you would have long been gone not just from this Tanah Melayu but the EARTH.

                Will continue in part 2 to rebut your point re: AlQuran

                Like

                • Ikhwan

                  I have to respect you with your wild imagination and your assumption of me choosing this name. Firstly, it has nothing go to do with hang tuah or jebat. I simply pick it up since this blog is jmd and since i want to be a friend to jmd and have chosen to use jebat’s fren. But if this nickname is offensive to you and some idiots who just assume and make up imagination, i am more than happy to use Ikhwan’s fren or whatever fren or “fan” also will do.

                  Can’t imagine that you can portray Hang Jebat will chop me and my kind into pieces. From this expression of yours, it shows how deeply resentful you are towards the nons. You really fit well to those Taliban type and the suicide bombing type. Now i feel a lil fearful to continue to exchange thoughts with you. bro, in today’s time, no longer chop lah, Taliban has also upgraded to use guns and bombs.

                  Like

                  • Huh!?

                    Are you mentally retard or something?

                    You want to be JMD friend and therefore you choose the nick name Jebat’s frens? Why not JMD frens?

                    Do you know what JMD stand for????

                    It is Jebat Must Die (JMD) Duh!!!

                    What an idiot!

                    You accuse me of having wild imagination!!?? hehehe…you are truly are retarded JOKER! You better look in the mirror and check yourself…..Were not you having one of your schizophrenic episode when you rambled about Taliban stuff?? Who’s having wild imagination here? You or me?

                    I would say that for arrogant and mentally retard NONS like you; shooting and bombing would be an understatement.

                    Perhaps what you deserve is a slow torturous death just like how your communist forefathers killed and treated their opposition!

                    Please ask for the relevant person permission first before you choose your nickname as their “frens”. Ans yes, I am not your friend so “jangan buat muka tak malu nak pakai” nick name “ikhwan frens”

                    Regards

                    Like

                  • Don’t simply simply use names la. Think what it means. Good to want to be JMD’s friend. But that’s not the way, friend.

                    Ask your friends lah before doing such things. Mebbe your problem is the friends you have are not knowledgeable about history also. So, mix around some more, mate. Join the mainstream of society. Then you’ll have less frustration, less criticisms of what you say.

                    Because non-mainstream thinking is not acceptable to the majority of the population. This is democracy, you know.

                    If the nons respect the Constitution and live by it fully, people would not resent them.

                    Like

              • To Jebat’s fren
                Here is my 2nd part:

                You said:
                ______________________
                I just have a very simple question in mind, does the Quran approve of such thinking?
                _______________________

                My comment:

                I presumed by this you are referring back what you call as the act of “obsessed with Malay Muslim race”. Correct?

                You have thrown in an inappropriate question on the basis of your own made misleading assumption. I admit that you people (the NONS) are the master of twisting logic and manipulating half baked truth to appeal others to your own unjust causes!

                First of all I like to ask you back a question: Who is the actually the one that are obsess with their own race? The Malay, Bumiputra or the greedy NONS like you??? The Melayu are obsessed with their own identity obviously because this is the Tanah Melayu. They want to maintain everything associated with Malaysia as being in line with the Melayu. You can even see the name MALAYsia has got the MALAY name upfront. Analogy of this is that one would expect to style his/her home with his/her style. Is there anything wrong with this? What if other people come and wanted to style other people home with their style??? Can you see the problem here???

                Yes, the problem is that you arrogant NONS are even more super obsessed with your own races in comparison to the Malay such that you wanted to impose your obsession to the foreign land of CHINA to this land of TANAH MELAYU! You insist on maintaining your own schooling system, you want the papan tanda to have you Mandarin print as well, you belittle this country National Language, you look down to other unfortunate races etc etc.

                Yeah the Melayu shout for KETUANAN MELAYU and it appears to be racist but you people are even worse, yes you NONS didn’t shout for ketuanan India or CINA but your actions and attitude are anything but for the KETUANAN CINA.

                Is this what the AlQuran want? And yes, is such thinking approve by the AlQuran? Mate, You tell me! Being super obsessed with your own races and Impose your identity to other people’s property???

                It is funny that when it comes to race relation, or nationalist uprising of the Melayu, these NONS would quickly jump for the AlQuran for their defense while they themselves shout, talk, breath, sleep and walk for their own races benefit and interest and the nationalistic of foreign China. You don’t even care whether your interest would compromise other races rights or not. And apparently this is not against the AlQuran??? Hehe you people are truly a joke!

                Well mate,

                Why don’t you remember and follow what the AlQuran says about: That there is no God except one, Allah and the Muhammad SAW is the messenger of Allah.???

                Why don’t you remember and follow what the AlQuran says about being fairness to other races and not being greedy??? (P/s note that I stated fair not equality for a reason)

                Why don’t you remember and follow what the AlQuran says about not drinking the ARAK, No Judi, No Loan shark and No Mistress???

                There you go…..I have given you back one simple question and I guess three more for you to reply.

                Good Luck

                Like

                • Ikhwan,
                  Your part 2 is really shooting everywhere. I am not the long winded type but just want to say that my question is for those of that faith to reflect what is being thought by the Book. I am not a muslim, therefore the teaching is not applicable to me and vice versa I can’t impose other Books teachings to you. The nons have their own version of their Books and it is up to them whether they want to follow or not. From all the Books that I am aware of (not thoroughy expert in it), none promote “race” superiority and a particular “race” must be of that religion.

                  You mentioned “You don’t even care whether your interest would compromise other races rights or not. And apparently this is not against the AlQuran???” ……

                  What then have we (indians, chineses) done that have compromised the rights for other races (all other races)? Like I mentioned, we nons are non-muslim, and even if we drink/gamble, did that amount to compromising your rights?

                  I am sure corruption, porn, hypocritical is also forbidden under the teaching other than No arak, no judi and no mistress.

                  Like

                  • Ohh
                    MR Jebat Frens or maybe I should call you JMD frens now since you have clarified it above. (I am not sure whether JMD has approve this or not)

                    Why dont you clarify to us what book you believe?

                    Hindu, Buddhist, Christian or Atheist? Let me teach you what your book says then….

                    Ohh apparently since the Melayu is Muslim they have to observe the AlQuran teaching and not obsessed with their race (This is your implied statement which is off course not true to begin with) while apparently you KIASU NONS are not oblige to do so and therefore are free to breath, walk, sleep, shout and talk full of racism for your race superiority!!???

                    Is this how it is???

                    Why such a double standard??

                    Asking others to observe a certain value when you yourself dont believe in it!!??

                    And you ask me:
                    _____________
                    What then have we (indians, chineses) done that have compromised the rights for other races (all other races)?
                    _____________

                    Dude!

                    What planet are you from? You must be one of those ALIEN that have been living in Malaysia and somehow were able to obtain the IC.

                    What not compromising other races right when you NONS shout for opening up the government servant quota, the higher education quota, the abolishment of the 30% economic quota? The road signs? Insisting on your vernacular school etc etc?

                    What not compromising other races when you implied “mandarin speaker only” for employment and your strong arm business tactic!?

                    What would happen to other unfortunate races when you do all of the above? What race would be benefiting the most???

                    Off course all those other bad thing including corruption and porn is part of the forbidden thing. So what???

                    You want me to list all the forbidden thing in ISLAM here in this short comment section!!???

                    Duh!!!??

                    Like

  13. I too feel disappointed and sadden with Sakmongkol. Didnt know that he carries that much hatred and venom in him.Clearly Sakmongkol is no fan of the old man but judging from the rapid sale of his memoirs, I guess Dr.Mahathir is very much the man many admire and look up to.I wonder who will buy Sakmongkol’s memoirs if he is to pen one himself.Ku Li perhaps?

    Like

  14. What about DSAI’s ancestry? Wasn’t his grandpa an original Hindu? What about Ibrahim’s character as compared to that of Mohamad Iskandar’s clean record?

    Is TR 100% Malay? Just interested to know from Sakmongkol.

    Like

  15. Dear JMD

    I’m from S’pura & I really respect Tun Dr Mahathir for what he has done to the Malay Muslim community. I’m really puzzled as to why some black sheeps in Malaysia still calls him a mamak or indian. The man has done so much to mengharumkan & memertabatkan the Malay Muslim community’s name.

    Heck he even dares to criticize his old nemesis, LKY over the “Muslims should not be too strict with their beliefs” statement when most of the Malay MPs in S’pura was too afraid to voice out our resentment.

    I know that Tun Dr Mahathir may have made some mistakes during his time in Malaysia but can’t the Malaysian ppl respect him as a negarawan. Malaysia would have overtaken S’pura in terms of economy if not for 1997 currency crisis. As for accusations of cronyism & corruptions, I’m not able to comment as there’s still no concrete proof of those accusations.

    Last but not least, if people still insists that Tun Dr Mahathir is a mamak or indian then the Malay Muslims community in M’sia should be ashamed of themselves because this “mamak” has contributed so much more to the community then any pure blood Malay leaders that I’ve seen in M’sia. That qualifys him as a Malay in my eyes.

    P/S: I’ve bought his book in S’pura albeit it’s more expensive than buying in M’sia…:)

    Like

  16. Jebat
    Finally, we are proven right about SAKMONGKOL.47. We have been watching and following his blog and my friends and I do a lot of analysis on what some bloggers really feel but habitualy deceive others and show they are intellectual, fair and just writing honest opninion.
    Many times we caught Sakmonongkol giving himself away. He carries a lot of hidden angst, envy ,diappointments and vengeful in his writings but cloaked in in words meant to potray he is ‘merely a frank intelectual malay’. Now that he’s given himself away, with the above article about Tun Mahathir , my freinds are convinced that true to our analysis , Sakmongkol 47 is a closet enemy of Najib and many in Umno he doesnt like or blame for his own shortcomings and unfulfilled plans. Look at his selective words and expressions and the exposition of his much lauded background. Dont be fooled by them. We are glad he has exposed himself that he is no friend, and even an enemy, of not just of mahathir , but also of Najib and many more he plans to ‘attack’ as revenge, using his blog. In simple word the man is deceitful , beware.

    Like

  17. Dear JMD,

    Sometimes ego can get the better of anyone. Datuk Sak gets coverage on The Malaysian Insider, which while writing this comment I haven’t checked TMI whether the article you described has been published, then you know that he craves for attention. Whatever his intentions are, that is.

    Anything anti-establishment gets the widest readership and “yeah, yeah betul” comments among the unbalanced opposition lackeys at TMI.

    He seems to have contracted the slay and fray syndrome of TMI, text taken out of context, misdirections, misreporting et al.

    Regards
    Freddie

    Like

  18. JMD,

    I was right. Just switched to TMI and the article is there, Part 1. Haven’t gone thru the comments though. Should be interesting. For comic relief that is. Like watching hyenas and vultures on Animal Planet.🙂

    FK

    Like

  19. Dear JMD,

    I must say this, half way reading Datuk Sak’s article, images I have of Tun flashing in my mind.

    Whenever greeting the Tun in those halcyon days, how people would want to kiss his hands out of very deep respect and the Tun would always pull away ever so graciously.

    And I shudder to think that these may be the same people chastising him.

    Warm regards
    Freddie

    Like

  20. Bro,
    Just like u, im quite sad when i red Semangkol article. I do not know what in his agenda….to be a hero by speculate Tun M Books….i dont know. Second person who are too bias i observed is Aspan Alias. Penuh kesumat & dendam mewarnai artikelnya menyebabkan saya harga n nilai dirinya sendiri semakin menyerlah. Sedih dengan situasi sebegini yang mana masih ada yang menganggap generasi sekarang boleh dimomokkan dengan permainan emosi semata-mata. Ikhlas

    Like

  21. Are you surprised? This kind of attack can only come from disgruntled fellows- be they ex-politicians, ex-govt servants, ex this and ex-that. There’s nary a word from them when they’re in service or still enjoying the perks of their positions. Armchair critics are the worst. Why dont they get off their behinds and actually do something useful?

    Like

  22. Dear JMD,

    I hope you no longer respect Sakmongkol. He is a mercenary. I dare ssay.

    He write well, has a good grasp of English, with occasional grammar mistakes – a very Malay thing.

    He wrote all the nice things about KJ one time. I had wondered why. Then I figured : aaah…this guy can’t be blind nor stupid. he can’t possibly admire or like KJ for what he is. so i decided that KJ must have paid him to write those postings.

    Anyway…my conclusion about Sakmongkol — i agree with most things the commentors have said here. He is a frustrated and bitter man. As I have said, he is a mercenary. Who do you think is paying him to write the nasties on Tun Dr M?

    PS: He needs the bread, man. He’s got to pay the ex-wife and kids, and maintain his, er, mistress.

    Like

  23. A bunch of Mahathir supporters that think Mahathir can never do wrong. Is JMD that perfect that none of his analysis is flawed?

    Those who cling on to Mahathir’s glorious era are nothing but just cronies reminiscing the good old days of being bullies and protected by Mahathir.

    When Sakmongkol supports UMNO/Mahathir, everyone hails him as a good and intelligence thinker. But when he doesn’t, he is anything but good. I guess Ibrahim Ali is a role model for many of you. The ultra nationalist when it warrants and will bull doze anything that is not aligned to bumiputera (in actual fact it’s nothing but UMNOputra).

    Like

    • Ah fren,

      I am not perfect. Nobody said I am. Not even me. But for sure, to lambast someone because of his ancestry and calling him a political liar just because he is malay with a tiny bit of indian blood is something illogical and contrary to the spirit of acceptance and tolerance. That is the gist of my article. Is it flawed? Are you saying we can do that? A friend of mine has a great grandfather who is Scottish. But he looks like a Malay and do not even know any single relative there in Scotland. Should I call him a liar for living in a lie? He should don a kilt and eat haggis if that suits my whatever perverted agenda?

      Yes, Mahathir’s era was indeed a glorious one. Better than the era that succeeded him. Am I now labelled as a bully and being protected by Mahathir? He doesn’t even know me! Who did I bully in the 90s?

      Your argument is as flimsy as Sakmiongkol’s. And way off target.

      Thank you and have a cheery day!

      Like

    • jebat’s fren

      I know many nons dislike Tun Mahathir because he is perceived as strongly Malay, despite having Indian blood or whatever.

      Do you realize how Chinese are Lim Kit Siang, Ronnie Liu and the DAP gang? They are chauvinist, racist and ultra kiasu when you consider they not only want more for themselves but also want the Malays not to have much for themselves. Blardy h..l, even the MCA endorse one seminar resolution calling for Bumiputera equity target be abolished, making some Malays react by calling for their citizenship right be abolished, too. MCA did it because of wanting to attract DAP Chinese votes by aping the DAP seditious act of questioning the Malay Special Position. DAP even use the tactics of secret societies, thugs and gangsters – didn’t you read the PKR ADUN Selangor and the PKR MP saying DAP Exco fler met “the Underworld” in the offices of the Selangor State Government?

      Why else would they tow Lee Kuan Yew’s chauvinist and subversive slogan, the so-called malaysian malaysia? Subversive because it subverts the Special Position of the Malays and the Bumiputeras of Sabah and Sarawak, wanting equality but not recognizing that Special Position under Clause 153 of the Constitution.

      And you lose your credibility by making such a sweeping statement as “Those who cling on to Mahathir’s glorious era are nothing but just cronies reminiscing the good old days of being bullies and protected by Mahathir.” I didn’t get even a square inch of land or one iota of IPO shares or any “crony benefits” but I yearn for “Mahathir’s glorious era”, old boy. I don’t bully but when you say such people are bullies, I’d like to say a few things to you though fully restrained by my respect for JMD who owns this blog.

      Say what you like, man, but must be within the bounds of decency, fair play and decorum, la. Don’t generalise, be specific in your comments, otherwise jebat’s fren deserves the Jebat treatment.

      Like

    • Well, we should be defending our race, the malay muslim race. Whether pseudo or not! Of course everybody is a crony of TDM. Even his critics… Everyone benefitted under his premiership didn’t they?

      Like

      • u r definitely right, glassman!

        many have benefitted but so many r ungrateful! even when they know the internet they r using comes from Tun’s idea of MSC back then! & there are many more ideas which have been rationalized by Tun & some which he has to keep aside when he stepped down (& never heard of any ‘dictator stepped down’!!)

        i love Tun for what he has done to our country. so many good things we have compared to other countries. u should live in that country before u can say they r better. all i know, many malaysians who revoke their nationality in UK r still stranded there, washing dishes while running from place to place evading the authorities!!

        to Tun’s haters,

        please read other thoughts oF & on Tun & think before u leap!

        Like

    • @jebat’s frencronies

      The Tun himself admits to making mistakes. There is no need for us to say that he is perfect or can do no wrong.

      I am among the multitude of Mahathir supporters and admirers reminiscing the good old days of being bullies and protected by Mahathir. Problem is I am an average Joe who never had a need to bully anybody hence do not need any protection from the grand old man. If that makes me a crony so be it. And yes, I pine for the good old days of not too long ago, 2003.

      As for Sakmongkol, reading his columns retrospectively he comments on personalities exploiting situations that serves an intent or agenda best known to himself. And as for his credibility he said …

      “But then Azmin Ali, the candidate for number two, has spoken ill of Dr Mahathir. Now, Dr Mahathir is a former UMNO president and PM. I have criticized him openly at times but I hope have not crossed the boundaries of civility. ” http://sakmongkol.blogspot.com/2010/10/azmin-ali-and-dr-mahathir.html

      By his subtle racist comments he has “crossed the boundaries of civility”.

      By the way, that post was carried by TMI and opened a flurry of derision of the Tun. http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/breakingviews/article/azmin-ali-and-dr-mahathir-sakmongkol-ak47/

      His latest claptrap now raises some questions as the motive of the said post.

      Like

  24. He is a bitter man. He failed to subscribe to UMNO kampung politics because of his so called intellectual superiority thus leading to his failure in politics. For someone who was appointed and not voted into position(yes, ketua penerangan UMNO is appointed and not voted by the division delegates) its clear than he is not made to be a politician. If he wants to contribute, he really should be an activist. With his arrogance, there is really no future but to be a political pundit.

    p/s: I wonder is it a coincidence that Najib increased majority and was the largest majority for any Barisan Nasional candidate in 2008 got anything to do with Arif Sabri being dropped as a candidate?

    Like

    • If that is the case then why send Malays overseas? Why bother?
      Because if they come back with some new knowledge that will help the Malays this practice of demonizing those who disagree will either cause them to be
      a) Staunch in their beliefs where they will be accused of sour grapes lah, kena maki hamun lah

      b) They will not apply this knowledge and there is status quo
      After that Malays complain that they are left behind.

      the biggest traitors are right here in this blog. they blame non Malays for the fate of the Malays when in fact its because of narrow minded Malays like yourself. And the perception of these narrow minded Malays is anchored on what Tun Dr Mahathir does. If he says its ok, then its ok. If he says ok, and we disagree then its because we are either
      a) Non Malays who hate Malays
      b) Malay apologists

      Like

      • Hi again Sak supporter, I just have to chip in on this.

        What on earth are you rambling about? This article is about Datuk Sak, creating a sentence that wasn’t there in the book and use it to racially condemn Tun Mahathir. Do you agree with this dishonest kind of writing?

        People can disagree with Tun but do it rationally and more importantly, base it on real arguments instead of spinning something that wasn’t there in the first place!

        It is very unfortunate for him to say – “Can you hold on to anything he says if he doesn’t see anything wrong in I have Indian blood but I am Malay. My Indian Muslim friends were rolling on the floor laughing out loud.”

        From the book, he never actually said that. So why on earth suddenly his Indian Muslim friends want to laugh about that? Mahathir is not even an Indian Muslim! Have you even read the book? Do you think he lived as a mamak when he was small? Where? Which part?

        The truth is he is not even a mamak.

        Yes he has a bit of indian blood from his dad’s side. For instance, I know a friend whose grandfather is pure indian muslim who married a malay lady. The children then married malay men and women. The grandchildren are malays through and through. Do we have to call them mamak even when they don’t look or live like indian muslims? Heck, they can’t even speak tamil! Therefore, people who call Mahathir as mamak are racist. Using racial slurs to demonize him. Are you a racist Pro Sak? Your inability to understand this article and insist that Sakmongkol did no wrong seemed to portray you as one.

        This is the reason for this whole article. Because Sakmongkol is trying to portray that Tun Mahathir is a liar because he is a mamak (according to Sakmongkol) but living a lie as a Malay. I wonder if Sakmongkol even read it. And who are you to assume that Tun Mahathir is not a Malay? Are you Tun Mahathir? Obviously not!

        To summarize, you can disagree with Tun but please for God’s sake, do not lie to justify your rant. Do you understand this?

        Therefore, in all honesty (if you have any), when we see Datuk Sak writing that particular article, calling Tun a liar, over something bordering a racial derogatory slur in which based on a sentence that does not even exist in the book, what can we conclude from it?

        We can conclude that Sak was desperate. In fact, he is the one who actually being narrow minded and a sour grape. And you find it weird why he is not chastised here? How deluded are you my friend? Can’t differentiate the real issues here do you?

        Thank you.

        Like

        • Pro Sak,

          Short and sweet, Sakmongkol’s statement is RACIST in nature and he is creating a POLITICAL PROPAGANDA. So, doesn’t POLITICAL PROPAGANDA that is based on RACISM sounds so wrong to you? If it doesn’t, then do you sybscribe to this POLITICAL PROPAGANDA? If you do, then you are a RACIST then?

          No intentions of poking but just curious from what context are you arguing from that validates the fairness of Sakmongkol’s statements. I am confused, bemused and amused at the same time dude. Help me out here.

          Thanks

          Like

      • Haiyya, what kind of argument is that, Pro Sak? By the same token, are you saying don’t send the Malays to school even? Sorry to say but the Saks and Pro Saks appear to sulk by putting out strange views and arguments. KJ agenda, beholden to Ku Li for exclusive interviews given, etc.

        Dissent by all means but must be on reasonable basis, la. Ever heard of Malaysian Insider, M’kini, M. Today etc not allowing contradictory views and some one said here Sakmongkol didn’t publish his counter-arguments? And you got yours published here, don’t you?

        “the biggest traitors are right here in this blog” – what, you new here, are you? Or you Anwarish or non-ish? Saying “blame non Malays for the fate of the Malays”? Haven’t you read the comments blaming even the bloody colonialist British? Ish, ish, ish.

        And you blame “narrow minded Malays”. You fellows call yourselves liberal or intellectual Malays? Do you know that you are not liberal or intellectual if you are not broad minded? Are you broad minded just by blaming those like TDM who want to protect Malay rights and promote Malay interests? In the face of the genuinely chauvinistic and racist so-called malaysian malaysia blokes who even want the Malay Special Position and the NEP be done away with? You are, at best, pseudo-liberal, old chap, believing you are liberal or intellectual when in fact you are not.

        Like

  25. HutanSetali says –

    This sakmangkol fella is nothing more than a lowly mercenary. he sucks up to Kuli and the BlackBoy SIL whose father-in-law screwed this nation big-time in just 5years. sakmongkol is a person of loose character and was screwing around and got caught recently. Pity his wife coz she thinks her husband just made a single mistake while the truth has a long list of ‘keeps’ in KL, Terengganu, Muadzam Shah, Pekan and the latest in Jerantut.

    p/s Datin, get out while you could.

    Like

  26. i don’t get why people esp those who hate Tun M likes to bring up his ancestry. To me, the spirit of being a Malay, also being a Malaysian, does not lie purely in your ancestry but also the culture you practice. Malaysia in more ways than one, like America, is kinda like a country of immigrants. We have history of immigrants making their way here and being part of the country, and to a certain extent part of the main culture, some more than others. For example, my grandmother, borne of local and mainland Chinese who converted to Islam and lived among the Malay community, spoke Bahasa Malaysia, practiced the Malay culture and is Muslim. By the definition in the Constitution, she is Malay. Tun M, whatever his ancestry is, speaks the Malaysian language, practices the Malay culture and is a Muslim. By constitutional definition, he is a Malay. Full stop.

    I also find it ironic that these ‘liberal’ people who wants to do away with racial identification as to have racial equality and justice, are always the first to cast racial slur on other people. Mamak lah, kerala, indian.. you name it. Cakap tak serupa bikin.

    JMD : DITTO!

    Like

  27. Salam Bro. Thought of sharing what I wrote to Tok Sak with you, if I may:

    Tok Sak,
    Lets be fair la… TDM may have LOTS of weaknesses, etc., BUT Ku Li? Nampak je “gentleman & princely”, but as far as I’m concerned this longest serving MP of GM is as bad… every year balik raya for the past 20++ years lalu GM jalan macam 3rd world country, pekan GM macam pekan cowboy kat Peru… and he’s a classic NATO la… gone case. Musa Hitam? Lagi penyangak besar robbing Sime Darby in broad daylight… elegant silence kepa** bap** dia! DSAI? Oh my! Ni lagi kepala segala penyangak & king of putar alam… and we’ll get to see his “grand silap mata” in sodomy 2 soon… Tun Dol & his SIL & band of merry robbers? Tak payah cerita… Lim Kit Siang? Nik Ajis? Ni nak masuk list pun segan la… so who’s our perfect “politikus negara”? You tell me?

    Like

    • Tok Sak? Whos is Tok Sak? Read the Pakdokter comment above – no need to show respect to those who don’t deserve respect.

      I must ask Pakdokter if the MPs who shout in Parliament until suspended for 6 months etc and ADUNs who behave like monkeys climbing the table in full ADUN regalia, stand up on the table and shout to fellow ADUNs should be called Yang Berhormat.

      One Professor of Constitutional Law had commented that our law-makers have not reached the level of maturity of … you fill the blanks.

      Not really out of topic, JMD – commenting on a comment, sort of crying out “point of order”, during debates, Sir.

      Like

  28. Dear JMD,

    Looks like this Sakmongkol character has a huge ego and likes to potray himself as an UMNO saviour. I agree that he is one frustrated ex ADUN who was not reelected and now going around town stabbing Najib in the back. If I were Najib’s advisers I better watch this guy and never give him any leverage in UMNO. He just likes his ego to be massage and the pro opposition comments from Joe Black, Wenger J Khairy, Donplaypuks, Walla, Quiet Despair seems to give satisfaction. Normally his articles will get adulation from these people and it is not surprising really. They are also KJ’s most ardent fans. So, if you put two and two together you will figure out where they are coming from.

    So as far as I am concern, Sakmongkol is irrelevant and you should not give him the honour of a mention in your blogsite.

    Thanks

    Like

  29. And my comments to sak telling he is wrong were not publush. He says he publish all but he choose. Yet he thinks he has integrity. He clearly says drm is a chameleon and a liar yet he dowhplayed his view by saying drm history is not umno’s. Red herring? Sak, we are questioning your view that drm is a liar. Didnt he admit that he has indian blood? Didnt he admit that he lived his life as a malay? Wasnt his mother a malay?Which part was the lie? And are you insinuating that all indian muslims, mamaks, indians are beneath you? If you have proof that he applied for his med school under indian race, bring it on. The burden is on you to prove it.

    You were made ADUN during his time. Obviously, u didnt perform to the needs of the rakyat/malay hence u were not selected again. Your replacement seems to do a better job. You are bitter about it and that explain this unsolicited attack. I suggest you write your bio and see how it can stand up to drm’s. For info, drm is not writing about umno’s bio, he writing his own memoir.

    Like

    • That’s interesting to know. Never knew him to be like that. He must have changed drastically, perhaps when he started supporting the wanna-be-PM-by-40 boy KJ. Or he has “signed up” with the MInsider etc League.

      Like

  30. Salams,
    If Che Det is from a chinese origin n given away to this mamak family,I would still consider Dr Mahathir a malay.Che Det loves tradional malay cakes.Anyway Dr Mahathir has worked very hard for Malaysia and is still working harder.Long live Che Det!

    Like

  31. Salam,

    Sy tak faham, y should respect orang macam itu? Orang Melayu banyak terhutang budi pd Tun, kenapa nak dinafikan? maybe ini ada kaitan dengan perangai hasad dengki (PHD) orang Melayu sendiri, Tun pon x dapat lari dr jadi mangsa… apalah malangnyaa nasib…

    Like

  32. Dear JMD,

    Question: Dr. Mahathir was PM for 22 years. During that time he must have had over 40 different cabinet ministers. Yet why did he promote Musa, Ghaffar Baba, Anwar and Badawi only to politically finish off 3 of them and then get rid of Badawi?

    Why not promote somebody who was very skilled?

    My answer is that Mahathir was just interested in preserving his own power. He fakes his ignorance of hiring deputies. He purposely wanted to surround himself with poor performing and compromised leaders so that they will not turn against him. Is this the mark of a Malay hero or a self serving mamak?

    All the kampung mentalities here think that because Mahathir criticizes the Chinese and the Indians he is a hero. Because Mahathir created BTN to condemn the other races he must be pro Malay.

    Well, in that case why spend millions to send a few Malays overseas but at the same time compromise on local university standards where there are many more thousands of Malays studying locally. Why engage in wasteful spending today when there are millions more Malays to come in future generations? Why force Malays to learn Science and Mathematics in Malay in 1970 only to claim today that Science and Mathematics should be taught in English?

    The answer is Mahathir knows precisely the mentality of the kampung Malays. So he will govern to give them the impression he is the Malay champion. The more educated Malays see through his ruse instantly and then are given this option: Destruction if they oppose Mahathir or wealth if they acquiesce to his politics of corruption and compromise.

    Sakmongkol confronted these lies with facts. He challenged those to confront the evidence – that Dr Mahathir betrayed in cold blood Tengku and Harun Idris, that Dr Mahathir likes to be a trouble maker to others but will destroy those who oppose him. Sakmongkol paints Dr Mahathir as what he is – a manipulative politician and you lot are unable to rebut these arguments.

    Btw have you even looked at the amount of business Dr Mahathir’s children own? Are you surprised that Mukhriz can be a partner in everything from telecom to advertising? Will dare to look at that?

    No . You won’t. Because Dr Mahathir knows very well, that you all will keep on saying that Dr Mahathir is always correct.

    Like

    • Hi Pro Sak,

      You are so way beyond your head that you seemed ignorant about history. But that is fine because you have been educated from poor, narrow minded and possibly pro Anwar Ibrahiim people.

      Let me make things clear. We know you are a malicious racist by calling Mahathir a mamak. Yes, Mr Pro Sak. You are a racist. Accept it. People are seeing your comment in a different light now. You think you are a better person than everyone else here but clearly you are not. You try to demonise Tun with whatever argument you are trying to bring forth but sadly, as a racist, you have no credibility. This is further compounded by your poor grasp of history and shallow knowledge of politics. Your whole intelligence is hinged on the array of deluded compendium of below average arguments that we can find in pro opposition blogs. Mahathir a dictator.. Mahathir is good for nothing leader, Mahathir is Mahafiraun ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

      Are all the educated malays that supposedly can see through Mahathir’s ruse as racist as you?

      First and foremost, Mahathir did not promote Musa Hitam as deputy. Musa Hitam was selected as DPM when he won the race as Deputy President of Umno over Tengku Razaleigh in 1981. Essentially, representatives of Umno divisions voted for Musa as the DPM. Care to disagree with this fact? You can’t unless if you use your own suppositions or opinion which carry no currency because simply put, you weren’t there. Mahathir promoted Musa? Of course not. Mahathir did not have a choice. This is democracy. Do you know what that means?

      Of course not. People who shouted about democracy would be the last person to practice it. Want some example? Just look at your hero, Anwar Ibrahim and his PKR.

      Now you know.

      Musa Hitam resigned from his post as DPM my friend. Basically, Musa Hitam finished off his own political career. I tell you what. You are working right? Let’s assume you are working in a company. You disagree with your big boss over some policy. Majority of your colleagues do not agree with you and instead, they support your boss.

      What should you do? Do you think your boss should resign because you and a few of your pitiful followers do not agree with the policies? Hell no. It is you who should resign!

      This is what Musa did. And he actually lost to Ghaffar Baba because just like you and your followers, you’d think you’d know better.

      As for Ghaffar Baba. Now why did Mahathir promoted him as the Deputy? Why Pro Sak? Because Ghaffar Baba was one of the Umno vice presidents!

      What, you think Mahathir can pick just anybody? You think Mahathir must choose you as the DPM at that time because you think you are more skilled than all the sentient beings in the universe? If you are not the vice president, by convention, the President cannot pick you as deputy.

      Just read his book page 539 onward please. Or would this be too cumbersome for you?

      And how dare you say Mahathir politically killed off Ghaffar’s career when it was A FACT that Anwar Ibrahim was the one who challenged Ghaffar. How demented are you Pro Sak?

      Your tendency to create your own kind of opinion which devoid of looking at the facts astound me. Your assertions that Mahathir purposely surrounded himself with incompetent deputies really amazes me as well. So now are you saying Anwar Ibrahim was incompetent too? Hmmm.. I would tend to agree on that!🙂

      Actually by acknowledging his deputies as poor performing, you inadvertently elevated Tun Mahathir as very efficient and competent and that his deputies were just a poor version of him.

      Sakmongkol produced no facts at all to condemn Mahathir. And when, for the love of God did Mahathir condemn the chinese and indians? For your information, he condemns everyone.. malays, chinese, indians, eurasians, jews, etc if he sees that there are mistakes in their ways. He should be a hero for all Malaysians. Not just for the Malays. But of course, you have Lim Kit Siang in one corner who would always be a master propaganda of racist politics whereby he will always look at things in a racialised way.

      When did Mahathir betrayed Harun Idris? Where? In fact, Mahathir released Harun from prison when Hussein Onn jailed him a few years before that. Mahathir betrayed Tengku? Actually it was Tengku who betrayed Mahathir by opposing him after all the things Mahathir did.

      Mahathir retained Tengku as the finance minister even when he lost to Musa in 1981. He didn’t give that powerful portfolio to Musa. But Mahathir must have trusted Tengku. Do you dare to give that powerful ministry to someone you do not trust? You won’t right. Because you have a small mind compared to Mahathir.

      In fact, Tengku was let off easily. Have you seen how lavish Tengku decorated the BBMB office when he was the chairman? Gold cutlery my friend.. Gold faucets in the bathroom. And Tengku had the cheek to challenge Mahathir in 1987? Out of bitterness because he lost twice to Musa Hitam? You might be confused here but it is okay. You do not know your history.

      And then you ventured into something unrelated to the argument at hand. Mahathir’s children’s business forays. You expect all sons of Prime Ministers to be poor? Care to know what are the sons of Tun Dr Ismail, Tun Hussein Onn, Tun Abdullah are doing right now?

      Friend, if it’s legitimate, then why bother? Look at the books. Why should we not dare to look at it? Have you looked at it? You yourself didn’t because you rely on all the plethora of lies in the pro opposition blogs.

      Not all Mahathir said is correct. But compare to you, at least he is correct most of the times while you are wrong most of times.

      The one with the kampung mentality is you my friend. Don’t tell me all the people here are wrong while you are the only one who is correct? Open your mind for other point of views please. And next time, please do not be racist ya. You are giving the wrong impression. I am sure your education has provided you with some common sense. If our education here is good enough to produce commentators with enough common sense, I am sure you would have some.

      Thank you.

      Like

      • JMD, man I think you just destroyed this Pro Sak guy. My advice to you Pro Sak, think before you speak about things you DO NOT know. If you don’t know don’t talk about it. This way your ass doesn’t get handed back to you in the most humiliating (but pretty awesome) fashion.

        Adam from DN

        Like

  33. ALL that hate him is all those who does not benefit from all of his work..but for me TDM have successful in developing this country for me to be success.. all those hiccup is because POWER CRAZE (opposition or UMNO Leaders the same)..

    If you think TDM is A BIG LIAR and all those story is a FITNAH go ahead and SAMAN him..

    But until now NO ONE not a single person DARE to SAMAN him.Why? Because he is telling the truth as knowing TDM,he will know jeorpadise himself if he is at a lossing side.

    Well people please SAMAN him if what tranpired in his book is a LIAR

    Like

    • Zarahcute,
      Why didn’t Tun go and saman Barry Wain?

      And I will condense my replies into 1 posting. If you can provide these answers then I admit I am a fraud, Tun is great, and Sakmongkol should shut up. If you can’t then enter your excuse here.

      JMD – Anwar is a fraud. Ok happy.

      Tun himself admitted that his own Chief of Police, not Ummi, told him that Anwar was a sodomite yet he engineered Anwar’s takeover as DPM. If he was not responsible why was Tun Ghaffar’s daughter so angry at Dr. Mahathir? If he had knowledge that Anwar was a sodomite why did he not block Anwar in 92? Why wait until the time that when Anwar Ibrahim was challenging him for the Presidency to go and declare Anwas was guilty of homosexuality? Why did he choose to believe the surat layang of a “virgin” than his own Chief Of Police?

      Answer: Political expediency. Can you at least admit this. Is this too difficult. Mahathir engaged in political expediency. When it was expedient he would call Anwar his successor. When it was not he would call Anwar a sodomite. When it was expedient, he would chastise Malays for being lazy. When it was not, he would ensure his children got the big contracts and the APs (Ask Rafidah Aziz). Can you tell me why Diperdana got a contract for GMPC? Or what made Medivest so special that they got a deal in health care privatization? . When it was expedient he would criticize the Chinese and the Indians, when it was not, his best buddies were Vincent Tan and Ananda Krishnan. Btw, why not ask Tun Haniff, why RM 1 billion of Maxis shares were sold at around the time Tun was retiring. These shares were held as part of a bumiputera trust.

      Why not ask Ani Arope the details behind the IPP? Yes Dr. Mahathir is the ultimate Malay of Indian descent who champions the Malays. He ensured his buddy Francis Yeoh got an IPP and today, we gladfully waste so much subsidies so that Francis Yeoh’s IPP and many others can screw TNB.

      By the way, does it even bug your remotest conscience that after 30 yrs, we have virtually no proper second line leadership? Malays are treated to the same recycled options of Mahathir, Najib, Anwar and Nik Aziz?

      So who is going to provide the leadership for today and tomorrow? Mukhriz? Khairy? Hishammuddin? Is this the options. Is it good?

      Does it not bug you, a so called Malay patriot that not one of our top universities are in the Top 200 of the world? Is it sufficient for other Malay children to get substandard education locally while you and other elites can send their children abroad, of course on Government scholarship. So while other kids are getting their brains wracked between Pro M, Pro A, lecturers who are lazy to do research and a system wired for sub par performance, the elites children can get the best possible education, come back and continue this domination by the elites?

      We don’t blame Dr. Mahathir for that? We don’t blame his blasted BTN which perverted the minds of millions of Malay civil servants into thinking backwards when they should be thinking forwards? Or are you oblivious to the machinations in the universities during his reign as Prime Minister when mediocre talent was promoted over top talent? Is this the leader you so gladly defend?

      I am beginning to doubt your sincerity in the Malay cause. You for one, given your education, your job and your experience should be concerned about these issues. Issues on succession. Issues on transparency. Issues on competence and issues on integrity.

      But like many others, you flatter to deceive.

      Like

      • Ah Pro Sak, what a confused soul you are. First and foremost, nobody wanted you to admit that you are a fraud. I wanted you to see that you are a racist. That’s all. And from the comment you posted above, you indeed are one. Harping on Mahathir’s ancestry again ProSak?

        Why couldn’t you say he is a Malay because his grandfather’s mother was a malay and he is a malay because his father also married a malay? He is malay through and through. That was what Mahathir trying to state in his book. People erroneously and maliciously told you that he enrolled in the university in Singapore as an Indian when it was not even true.

        Read the book ProSak. I see that you haven’t. Or else, you wouldn’t even write this longwinded comment filled with half truths skewed with your own demented perception.

        Anwar is a fraud. Yes. I am glad you recognise this. But you are a racist ProSak. That is indeed very sad. Sad to note that this non-malay looking with disdain whatever the Malays has achieved. If you had read the book, you would have known the success this country has made, against overwhelming odds, over a relatively peaceful period of time.

        Mahathir did not believe Anwar involved in homosexuality back in 1993 because in the beginning he dismissed the brief presented by Tun Haniff Omar. Haniff even said oin his writings that as soon as Mahathir scoffed at the subject, he remained silent and did not pursue the matter. Mahathir wouldn’t entertain any notion that his DPM was sodomising and having sexual escapades with women because he assumed someone with Islamic ‘credentials’ such as Anwar Ibrahim will not immerse himself in such activities. Mahathir, at that time, thought this was just a malicious attempt to oust his deputy.

        Anwar, seeing that there was no action taken place since 1993, continue gallivanting with his perverted antics. Fast forward to 1997 when the allegations arose again; Karpal Singh vigorously announced to the whole world that Anwar is a homosexual after receiving reports from witnesses and victims. Mind you ProSak, these victims approached Karpal Singh because Mahathir did not take any action.

        Only after all the rumours had spread to Malaysian public, helped by the opposition at that time, did Mahathir were approached by the victims and believed, just like Karpal Singh did, Anwar performed those acts with impunity.

        o ProSak, what political expediency are you talking about? You want Mahathir to keep a sodomite in his cabinet?

        You are so delusional in your quest to ridicule Tun Mahathir you even say that he engineered Anwar to oust Ghaffar Baba?

        Hellp ProSak. Since you are not a member of Umno, and have no inkling on what democracy is, let me tell you something. Anwar ousted Ghaffar Baba in the crudest of ways. Poor old man.

        Needless to say, Mahathir had to acknowledge Anwar as the incoming deputy president because Anwar ‘engineered’ himself to get overwhelming nominations for deputy presidency in 1993.

        So how? You want Mahathir to be a dictator and ordain that Anwar is not fit to be the deputy to the chagrin to all that had nominated him? Hence, I said earlier, you do not know what democracy is. That is why you see no wrong when Lim Kit Siang remain in power for 40 years without anybody challenging him at the top. You can only relate to dictatorship. Maybe you need to be ruled under a real dictatorship. Maybe that will clear your disillusions.

        So Ghaffar’s daughter was angry at Mahathir? I am sure it is not as big as the anger of Ghaffar’s family towards Anwar.

        Tell me ProSak, after reading all this, do you even know what political expediency means? Please do not be confused with your own negative perception.

        I abhor your next line of comment. Your criticisms are laced with questions that you yourself could not provide us with answers. So tell us why Diperdana got a contract for GMPC? Was Mahathir chairing the tender committee of that GLC? I am sure he wasn’t. So, why arrogating something that you yourself could not provide any evidence?

        This kind of approach is rampant in any opposition platform. Insinuating something without any proof. But when Lim Kit Siang could hold on to power for so long, you do not see any wrong with that. When letters of support were abused by DAP Selangor, all those dim-witted buffoons in the DAP CEC deemed is as inefficient office management instead of an outright corruption and abuse of power.

        Like I said earlier, if it was a legitimate deal and according to procedures, then why are you hopping up and down screaming impropriety? We sure did not book Abdullah’s son who owns Scomi and get fat contracts from government until this day. Did you fo any police reports ProSak?

        Yes we question a lot. On why PMs sons are given special treatment (just like how Lim Guan Eng can become the Sec Gen of DAP without iota of challenge by anybody else). But unlike other leaders, Mahathir actively ordered his sons not to be in politics while he is still in power. Whatever business they are involved with, they have to do it on their own. Do you think Mahathir chaired the tender committee meeting of foreign companies in other countries when Mirzan was vying for overseas projects?

        Therefore, your contention of political expediency is misplaced. He was the PM. He manages the country. His leadership sought to correct whatever he sees unfit towards the goal of the nation to be fully developed. Be it Malays, Chinese, Indians, etc. So he can never ever criticise Malaysians because some poor soul like you will label him as being political expedient? What nonsense. You are trying to justify your motives with the flimsiest of argument. Just like Datuk Sakmongkol. By the way, if you say that Wan Azizah purposely step down as an MP so that her husband can be one, then that is political expediency. If Lim Kit Siang purposely sack Wee Choo Keong for ‘lack of showing affection towards DAP leadership’ without any right of defence, then that is political expediency.

        When Tengku Razaleigh was a sour grape and brought Umno to court which the court then decide that Umno was illegal and disbanded, of which later on he formed Semangat 46, then that is political expediency. When Semangat 46 was disbanded in 1996 and he rejoined Umno after he saw that there is no future with PAS, that is political expediency.

        ProSak, this article is to chastise Sakmongkol for calling Mahathir a pig headed politician and a political liar based on Sakmongkol assertions that Mahathir is an Indian but masquerading himself as a malay when in fact, that is not true. Sakmongkol engineered a whole statement just to justify his rant.

        By the way, why don’t you ask Anwar Ibrahim who inked the deal with the IPP? You think Francis Yeoh are not friends with Anwar? Why don;t you chastise Francis Yeoh for screwing us all? Are you saying non Malays has no conscience? He can terminate that IPP agreement all this while? But of course, a racist like you will see it from your own racist point of view. It is all the Malays’ fault. By your own accord, if the IPP is lopsided, then you of all people should have a teh tarik session with your My Yeoh and advise him that his YTL is screwing your behind.

        Do you understand what I am saying ProSak?

        And there you go again blaming Mahathir for a strategic decision of a private company to sold its shares. So what if Ananda want to delist Maxis back then? Tell me, show us this information that you are privy of?
        And then you move to the next laughable argument. That we do not have a second line after Mahathir.

        ProSak, Najib was the second line. The younger leadership has not made to the forefront yet. We have young leaders. It’s just you do not mix around with the Malays that much to care and see.

        And what about the second line leadership of the Chinese and Indians? Who are your second line leaders? What I see are demented and power hungry young turks in dynastic succession plan that will sure lead Malaysia towards doom. Gobind Singh? Guan Eng? ProSak, you love dynastic dictatorship so much do you?

        As your skewed racial perspective clouded your mind, you are unable to remotely find any faults of your own kind, in your own words, The NONs. Man, you are saying as if you people are not part of Malaysia and never admit that Mahathir was your PM as well.

        If Mahathir only cared for the Malays you think you ‘Nons’ can prosper here? What a moronic kind of thinking you have there.

        Yes it bugs me that only our public universities are not doing so well. I chastise the Malays as well. Is criticising my own people unpatriotic? Or do you think me, criticising my own people gives you the joy that you seek?

        Or maybe, you want me to criticise Mahathir for the faults of young Malay kids not working hard enough in universities. You want Mahathir to be a parent to all the 5 million malay kids now?

        You do not know how to discern on when and how to criticise ProSak. Credit is given to where it is due. Since you were living in a cave or probably did not exist in 1981, I bet you do not see and cannot differentiate the difference Mahathir’s leadership has brought to this country and to the world.

        When the rest of the world look up to Mahathir and prayed that God send to them a leader of Mahathir’s calibre, here you are thinking that Mahathir is an anathema to this country.

        ProSak, when Mahathir cajoled Malays to work hard, when Mahathir tells the Malays to fight for their rights etc, doesn’t mean he does not care for the non Malays. You must be an idiot to think that.

        And, when Mahathir chastise the Chinese to think comprehensively as Malaysians and not to think as if this world owes them a favour, does not mean he hates the Chinese. Only Lim Kit Siang would want you to think like that. If he hated the Chinese, they won’t make an easy living here.

        And you made an awful accusation that Mahathir promoted mediocre talents from universities over top talents. State your proof. Name us the top talents that were overlooked and what were these top talents ended up working at?

        ProSak, I will gladly defend Mahathir because the good he did outweighs the bad that he did. If a leader’s ability to lead is dwarfed by his stupidity, then I will not hesitate to criticise him. What is so difficult with this logic?

        I don’t care what other Malays think about Tun Mahathir. If I were the last person to think he is the best leader we ever had, then so be it.

        It is a shame that you see yourself as representing the non Malays. I do hope that all non Malays see him as their Prime Minister as well. But I guess the racism that DAP and the opposition propagated had lend a helping hand in excluding the non Malays as Malaysians. It is a shame really. As without Mahathir, the non Malays could not prosper that well compare to, say if the late Fadzil Nor of PAS were the PM after 1999.

        In fact, you are the one who is insincere ProSak.

        When will be your teh tarik appointment with Francis Yeoh? Let us know the outcome.

        Please do not deceive yourself into thinking that only Mahathir was bad for you. Your own kind might be dangerous for you too,

        Thank you.

        Like

      • Pro Sak,

        Boy, am I glad that JMD has whacked you prim and proper up there. I support all that he said 100%, nothing less. You simply are being naughty and mischievous and you deserve every word you got there. I want to add my own, below.

        Having been informed by his own Chief of Police, what’s wrong in Tun’s “engineer(ing) Anwar’s takeover as DPM”? Have you heard such things as “benefit of the doubt”? You do not know how solid the Police information, do you? Responsible leaders do not do summary “executions” like Lim Kit Siang did of Wee Choo Keong and others.

        Come on, boy, how shallow minded of you to suggest that Tun “chose to believe the surat layang of a “virgin” than his own Chief Of Police”. Either you are so immature in politics or you were born only yesterday. Or you talk DAP goons style.

        JMD has dealt with your accusation of “Political expediency” thoroughly and I’ll not dwell on it. I would add that it is usually the DAP goons, gangsters and ungrateful ingrates who say here and there that the Malays are lazy, using tongkat like the Chinese have been using for over a hundred years since British colonial times, aping the British colonial bastards one of whom wrote somewhere to that effect.

        You keep asking people to ask others in support of your accusations. What kind of arguments is that, dude? Communist style? Lim Kit Siang style? And snide remarking TDM “is the ultimate Malay of Indian descent who champions the Malays”. Bloody nasty fellow, you are.

        You asked, “So who is going to provide the leadership for today and tomorrow?” You don’t even have any suggestions. I know I can’t expect any constructive criticisms out of the likes of you. Or you’ll suggest the doomsday alternative of Lim Kit Siang or Lim Guan Eng – sorry, Anwarul Jalan Belakang does not count at all in my books! I support JMD saying that you simply pluck statements out of thin air and do not provide proofs, plausible arguments, merely asking readers to ask Hanif, Ani Arope etc.

        You are a DAP bloke when you blame “BTN which perverted the minds of millions of Malay civil servants into thinking backwards”. Do you know that the Malay civil servants have a mind of their own, that they can and do play a role in the balance of power, exercising discretion in the extent or thoroughness of policy implementation or in restraining excesses, despite, admittedly, quite a number are corrupt? Lim Guan Eng should know that – he tried to whack the Penang State Development Officer, trying to drag the poor fellow in a media war, stooping so low for not trying to solve his problem through the proper channel. But proper channel is never DAP thinking – as JMD pointed out, dynasty-ism etc in DAP shows a lot of dictatorship in DAP practices here and there. And DAP’s partner, Anwarul, is also known for not going through the proper channel, landing himself in court for the second time now!

        State your case substantively on the issues you mentioned so that readers can respect you, man. Give the facts and figures, quote authorities that are reliable or verifiable, not simply say ask Hanif, Ani Arope and the kind. Your English suggests you are an educated man but your blind accusations and irresponsible statements make you look the opposite.

        To counter your words “flatter to deceive”, I’ll say you should not flutter before you utter. If you are lazy to do research and provide sustainable facts and figures, either shut up or say non-self damaging statements. Be responsible, man.

        Me? I’m OK, because I’m putting out mainstream views. Now, now, don’t start saying there is “another mainstream views” like I read in another blog, because there cannot be two mainstreams, you know.

        Like

        • Pro Sak:“chose to believe the surat layang of a “virgin” than his own Chief Of Police”

          Pro Sak: TDM “is the ultimate Malay of Indian descent who champions the Malays”.

          The above statements are clear proof that Pro Sak is not just an ultra racist but a sexist and a blatant liar too, a product of Lim Kit Siang and Anwar Ibrahim.

          The “surat layang” was written by a woman named Ummi Hafilda with full disclosure of her identity and address. Mr Pro Sak Liar, how could you term such letter as “surat layang”?

          Indeed you are a PEMBOHONG BESAR!!! liar, penipu!!!pembelit…get your facts right maa!

          Like

  34. Dear JMD,

    No matter what he says about the ex-PM, Dr M is very much a Malay (and a very useful one too). As for Sakmongkol…his malayness did not and will not benefit the nation..

    Like

  35. Look at Arif Sabri’s attempt to contain the situation. Now he says he only disagrees with Mahathir’s politics. You call a person pig headed(kepala babi) then you tell people you respect him. Such words are just written with pure hatred. He has lost his credibility to me.

    I guess calling him pig headed (kepala babi) will also just be too rude for having the heart to bring such sadness to his own family. Such an exemplary display of character Arif Sabri. Well done.

    Like

  36. JMD, you don’t have to respond to my last comment. I am a NON. I apologise for having given the wrong impression. Let the Malays decide whether Dr. Mahathir was good or bad without considering the opinion of NON’s .

    Like

    • I could smell you are a non. I think JMD knows, too. And he wrote lengthy rebuttals to let you and the likes of you anti-TDM nons know and, even if you don’t want to accept the facts, get an earful.

      Like

    • Pro Sak, wtf is up with you man. Now you raise the racial card? Do you think we would reply to you any differently if you were a Malay? This article was written to bash a Malay my friend.

      Like

  37. I just wanted to record my appreciation of you for standing up for Tun. My wife bought me Tun’s book as a preent and I am trying to find time to finish it. Difficult book to read, it takes the reader through all the fights he had and you can’t help feeling every punch he took.

    When I was younger, I had the pleasure of reading the Malay Dilemma and it was certainly an eye opener.

    I am always in awe of your steely determination to stand up and be counted. I sincerely hope that one day you will consider to stand as a politician. The Malay community and not forgetting Malaysia needs people like you.

    Thank you Jebat.

    JMD : Thank you for the kind words Lekiu. And I am sure many long time readers missed your commentaries.

    Like

  38. Wow! There are still so many stupid Malaysians, boleh baca, boleh tulis, tapi tak ada otak untuk berfikir. Masa akan tiba, mungkin dalam 10 tahun/15 tahun apabila negara ini sudah muflis dan Melayu terpaksa merantau keluar negara menjadi buruh kasar dan orang gaji betapa Melayu hidup-hidup ditipu oleh Mahathir dan mati-mati kamu semua percaya.

    Like

    • Hi Letchumi,

      So when Malaysia is bankrupt in 15 years time, it will still be Mahathir’s fault?

      So when Malaysia is bankrupt, only the Malays have to go out and seek employment? The non Malays will stay here still? What a sick racist you are. But you think you are not. It is okay then because we do not know who you really are in here. But I bet if we’d knew, even your friend will not sit beside you in the office.

      Not just because you are a closet racist, you are an idiot too. Let us look at Greece for instance. The country was bankrupt last year. Is that country empty now? Did the Greeks leave the country? Is Greece the only country where there are no population left anymore? What nonsense are you talking about that if Malaysia is bankrupt, the Malays will travel elsewhere to be maids and construction workers. Please do not demean the Indonesians my friend. What, the indians and chinese here are excluded from bankruptcy?

      As I see it, the only way Malaysia will be bankrupt is when Anwar the pornstar actor took over as PM and implement the stupid Buku Jingga.

      The one that is not thinking is you Letchumi. You percaya bulat bulat cakap pembangkang.

      Thank you.

      Like

      • Jebat,
        “Anwar the pornstar actor”? – You don’t have to stoop that low to gain readership. You may disagree with his politics but character assassination? (Unless you know more than we mere mortals). Leave it the the Magpies & Parpukaris of the world.

        Like

        • This is the problem when many people have high expectations in Jebat Must Die. Thank you for the vote of confidence. When bloggers such as Parpukari, Magpies, Zorro Unmasked, Din Merican (Datuk now), Susan Loone, Haris Ibrahim, Raja Petra, Sakmongkol, etc goes for the character assassination on daily basis, this blog is expected to take the high road all the time. Will take note of this seriously.

          But Jabba, not only I disagree with his politics, I also disagree with his character, attitude, the way he thinks and also his chameleonic principles. He does not fit to be a leader. Just read here for some casual reading. Thank you.

          Like

          • No brother Jebat, it is not high expectation at all, just simple civilised manner. If Kadir Jasin can, so can you. I respect your view about Anwar but surely we can do that with a bit of “adab”, no? After all we are Malays known for our “budi bahasa”. But if you are benchmarking yourself against Magpies, what can I say. I shall say no more.

            Like

            • I have no inclination to be like Kadir Jasin. He is way up there and not in my league. I am more comfortable with the likes of Anwar Ibrahim (he uses character assassination all the time), Haris Ibrahim, RPK, A Voice, Magpies, Lim Kit Siang (another character assassination expert) etc. Although I am not in the same league as these people, I always look up to them to learn the art of pulverizing your opponents to the ground. Maybe I am not there yet, but I shall learn. But of course, since ‘adab and budi bahasa’ is what you are looking for, I shall end this reply with a word of thanks. Like I said earlier, I have taken note of your grievances. Have a great day ahead Jabba.

              Like

        • @Jabba
          What is it with you Anwaristas? The character assassination of Tun MM by Sakmongkol albeit in racial tones, is the subject matter here. You must be enjoying further bashing of the Tun comments without saying anything. But mention your Man of the Moment, immediately you see character assassination but not before, in the gist of this post.

          Like

        • Anwar Aljuburin is is not just a pornstar actor my lord.

          He is, as from 21 February 2011, currently our undisputed Pornstar King my lord.

          Even Mr Adam Facebook and Mdm Tweeter Eve would testify to this.

          Anwar: damn u kiasu, I’d bang the rostum too u idiot!!!

          Like

    • and indeed, there are still so many bloody stupid letchumis…

      lupa nak pesan kpd penduduk luar sana; kalau jumpa ular dan letchumi takpun letchuma ke, tolong bunuh letchumi dulu ye…

      terima kasih!
      dasar paria…

      Like

  39. Though I read Sakmongkol article regularly but I feel sometime he is not doing his research properly resulting in accurate article. In many cases he is mixing truth with imigination blended with lie.

    Like

  40. i sink mahathir’s version of history is different than those whom he wrote. in cheenapore,
    he said he was treated shabbily by the then president on the day of an official visit, only that the president he mentioned died several months before the date.
    so how are we to answer questions about history when there are numerous version of the same event, if the subject is mandatory. are we suppose to lie, just to pass?
    jebat, as i see it, has no respect for anyone, except his friend tuah. in the end, he died an honourable death, while tuah, betrayed friendship for dictatorship and oppression.
    after all, despite all the wealth and desires, we should live an honourable life. hidup jebat!

    Like

    • Wat you talk, man? No like dictatorship and oppression? In 15th Century Malacca? Who said Jebat died an honorable death? You don even know the story of Jebat.

      Like

    • I guess you did not read his explanation here. So I guess the rest of your commentary is redundant and irrelevant.

      And of course, someone who had never read Sejarah Melayu in his entire life will not have any inkling on what happened between Jebat and Tuah. Ridiculous statement would come out from that brain of yours which could only make me think, is this person nuts? But I shall educate you with an easy to read story about Tuah and Jebat. The gist of it was taken from Sejarah Melayu. Please read it here. Thank you.

      Like

  41. Sir, I agree with you no less. Maybe Dato Sak should help to write TR’s memoir since he is a good writer. Of late I dont feel like reading his postings. Tak tau kenapa ye…

    Like

  42. Dear JMD,
    I read with interest this back and forth between so many comments on what Dato Sak wrote. Depending on the issue which people are upset about, let me perhaps state my facts
    1. ) I have no comment on Dr. Mahathir’s ethnicity. Dato Sak had one point. You have another. To me, I rather look at Dr. Mahathir’s character and more importantly the impact he had to the economy

    2.) Just in case anybody has the wrong impression, I am not a Malay. My views do not represent non Malays but just represents what people who can read a balance sheet, understand basic economic reasoning and have actually bothered to research our economy in great detail.

    I doubt this conjecture that Dr. Mahathir was responsible for the economic changes over the 80s and 90s. We can easily dismiss this most irresponsible lie by looking at the counterfactual argument – that is what would Malaysia have been if Dr Mahathir had not been PM?

    We need not to look further than the Phillipines, Thailand and Indonesia. All countries experienced urbanization, a reduction in absolute poverty and a growing economy without Furthermore, in Malaysia’s case there was an abundance of natural resources with the necessary infrastructure of trunk roads,ports and railways and Singapore as a key trading partner.

    So trying to equate development to Dr Mahathir is setting a low threshold. In fact, and I challenge you on this, our most important industries of oil and gas and electronics developed outside Dr Mahathir’s interference. This is where most of your readers are still unaware. Petronas was the brainchild of Ku Li. Intel invested in Penang long before Dr Mahathir was in Sri Perdana.

    In fact, taking this further we can compare the legacy of Dr Mahathir and Tengku Razeligh in terms of the institutions created. Tengku created Petronas, an entity that is now rated amongst the best corporates in the world. Dr. Mahathir created Proton, who requires protectionist policy and whose power windows seem to have a big problem.

    Another key point which people forget was the terrible shape of the country, economically when Dr Mahathir left office. Just pull out the reserves of BNM at around 2003, and compare it with the solid foundation Pak Lah left Najib when he announced his resignation. The economy under Dr Mahathir was characterized with a lot of deep recessions, especially in 1997 when he ostentatiously blamed speculators rather than ask exactly how much bad loans were made ( to his children perhaps). Compared to Pak Lah, our economy was so much better, even strong enough to withstand a Global Financial Crisis in 2008 without not even a single bailout!

    Granted that there are people who simply adore Dr. Mahathir here. It is not my intention to educate people on these facts. It is just to set the record straight on the economic sector.

    I am not commenting on any political, social or ethno angle. Just plain economics.

    Thanks
    WJK

    Like

    • Wenger,

      Please do not stupefy the readers by giving lame arguments. Counterfactual argument? Where is it? Where are the facts? You did not state any. So what kind of country Malaysia would have been if another leader is at the helm instead of Mahathir? Could Malaysia be much better? All these are idiotic kind of argument.

      What are you? Doraemon?

      You had lived in a parallel universe where Malaysia was so much better because another person, say Tengku Razaleigh was the PM? What kind of stupidity is this?

      Counterfactual argument??? Where??!!

      Philiphines, Indonesia and Thailand experienced urbanisation and reduction of absolute poverty? And you think Malaysia do not experience any kind of this situation?

      In 1980, poverty rate in Malaysia was 30% to 40%. In early 2000s, it was reduced to less than 7%.

      Economy was growing at an average of 5% to 8%.

      What is wrong with you? What kind of lies are you trying to tell?

      Yes Petronas is an entity that is now rated amongst the best corporate in the world. Yet, you made a ridiculous statement by saying that oil and gas and electronics industries were developed outside of Dr Mahathir’s interference?

      So yes Ku Li started Petronas. But he left Petronas in 1980! From the period of 1981 till now, who took care of Petronas? The BN government. And Petronas grew beyond people’s expectations because Mahathir did not even say anything about its policy? Are you saying the late Tan Sri Azizan and Tan Sri Hassan Merican never sought Mahathir’s advice when he was the PM? In fact, you should have also concluded that Petronas became what it is today because since 1980 to 2011, Ku Li left the company!

      And, for the love of God, you stated that all the readers here must know the truth, that Petronas and the WHOLE OF electronics industry here in Malaysia grew outside of Dr Mahathir’s influence???

      And what company did you mention? Intel??

      Wenger, you must have assumed that all of us here are stupid.

      Yes lets compare Ku Li’s and Mahathir’s legacy shall we? You can only state Proton for Mahathir? How about Bank Islam? How about UIA? How about the IT boom? How about you getting a job?

      I would like to continue more on this but sadly, your argument here are getting sillier with every sentence of yours. Proton’s power windows do not function properly and now you ridicule him as worse than Pak Lah. Wenger, do you know how problematic some Mercedes Benz and Alfa Romeo are? Did any of you condemn Merkel and Berlusconi for that?

      What a load of crap.

      Maybe you should check how Ku Li spent BBMB’s money to renovate his office back in the early 80’s? It was so lavishly done because a royalty like him must deserve the best treatment regardless how much it costs.

      You proceeded to compare Pak Lah to Mahathir? Hello Wenger, Subprime Financial Crisis back in 2008 is nothing compared to the meltdown during the currency crisis. Our financial systems did not get involve with all those bogus derivatives. Hence, we were partly sheltered. We were not the primary target. Asian currency crisis affected us directly because of the devaluation of the ringgit. All this we have to tell you again? I thought you are the go to guy for economical issues? Yet you gave us all these weak arguments? Counterfactual?? What is that again?

      By the way, we have compared Pak Lah’s legacy through statistics. We made that discussion already. One of them is here.

      Yes, it is plain economics. Do you think Ku Li could have done better? Maybe. Maybe not. But that is hard to prove right? Should we delve into alternate universe theory now?

      Please send in the old original Wenger of the Padedoh blog. Not the phony economists such as Penumpang or Wenger at War type bloggers.

      Thank you.

      Like

      • JMD,

        I knew you were a liar and now I can prove it

        Daim said that Anwar only rose through the ranks in Umno in the 1980s and 90s because then Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad had given him his full backing.

        “All this was possible because Tun Dr. Mahathir saw Anwar as the main candidate to replace him when the time came. So the entire machinery of Umno behind the president also moved to support Anwar,” he said.

        http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/mobile/malaysia/article/asri-wants-all-to-reject-dirty-politics/

        So Dr. Mahathir indeed supported Anwar Ibrahim after his chief of police had reported that Anwar was a sodomite. This has been admitted by Daim Zainnudin.

        You have been deliberately trying to spin the story that the decision on promoting Anwar was forced upon Mahathir when now Daim admits that Mahathir was supporting Anwar all along.

        Mamaks are liars. Yes you can call me a racist. but your a liar.

        Like

        • Hi Prosak,

          What on earth are you talking about Mr Racist? Calling all Mamaks as liars? I really pity you when you projected yourself this way. I think you should really relook on your writings coz you are not doing Sakmongkol any favours.

          And what did I lie about?

          Yes Mahathir didn’t believe the IGP at that time in 1993. I wrote that in my last reply to you –

          “Mahathir did not believe Anwar involved in homosexuality back in 1993 because in the beginning he dismissed the brief presented by Tun Haniff Omar. Haniff even said oin his writings that as soon as Mahathir scoffed at the subject, he remained silent and did not pursue the matter. Mahathir wouldn’t entertain any notion that his DPM was sodomising and having sexual escapades with women because he assumed someone with Islamic ‘credentials’ such as Anwar Ibrahim will not immerse himself in such activities. Mahathir, at that time, thought this was just a malicious attempt to oust his deputy.”

          Of course Mahathir supported Anwar. The key word here is – “All this was possible because Tun Dr. Mahathir saw Anwar as the main candidate to replace him when the time came.”

          Do you think he could be a DPM for 5 years without Mahathir’s support?

          When I give you the example of Anwar ousting Ghaffar Baba, that was an example of how power hungry Anwar was. I did not say Mahathir never supported Anwar since 1982 (the year Anwar joined Umno). What gave you that idea? And my dear PeroSak, yes Mahathir supported Anwar precisely after Anwar had wiggled himself to be the deputy president of Umno when he prematurely contested against Ghafar Baba. Because again, the delegates overwhelmingly voted for him.

          Again if you could understand English and a bit of history, Mahathir never as you put it, decided not to promote Anwar at anytime in his career. Daim was correct. Anwar was very close to Mahathir as the head of Umno Youth, as the VP, as the deputy etc. So how has it that you have proved that I am a liar? Are you delusional? You even claimed that Anwar is a fraud in your previous comment. So why are you hopping up and down just to prove that Mahathir did support Anwar whe he was in Umno? If you had been born before 1982, you would have remembered that Anwar lost Mahathir’s support somewhere in early 1998.

          Anyway, this article is about Sakmongkol being racist. Every other commentators here agree with that notion. And now, you even admit you are one. Even calling mamaks as liars. What is wrong with you Prosak? Did you not take your medicine today?

          By the way, just curious, are you in your 20s or early 30s?

          And.. have you had your teh tarik session with Francis Yeoh? Have you managed to urge him to cancel the IPP agreement with the government? Thank you.

          Like

      • JMD,
        In Padedoh, Wenger compared Malaysia worse than Gabon and Bostwana.

        Dear Wenger,
        It seems that over and over times you’ve tried to ridiculed Tun Dr Mahathir with your flashiy figures and arguements.

        If Pak Lah is so damn good, Barisan Nasional would have won GE12 by big majority as he did in 2004. But what had happened?

        Many of his promises were not carried out, his war against corruption tainted by his own son-in-law and his family while he was still the prime minister.

        These are among the contributers that flunked Barisan in GE12.

        Perhaps, for you, it always have been Mahathir. Always and forever, even if you failed to switch on the light!

        ~ OnDaStreet

        Like

  43. jeb,
    like most others here, i totally ditto this piece and enjoyed every one of your rebuttals tremendously. bravo! thank you for saying it so eloquoently on behalf of those of us who appreciate TDM for the man and statesman he is, warts and all.

    i echo lekiu’s sentiment abt you offering yourself for public service. possibly, one day, the highest office. i know i’ll make it a point to come back and campaign for you, regardless of which platform you choose. hope to know who you are by then, of course.😀

    Like

  44. kopihangtuah,

    I see below the non, jebat’s friend, clapping his hands and cheering you … well done Melayu! Those mischievous and claiming-all-sorts nons will exploit each and everything to demand the world for them, yet many don’t even respect the Constitution of the country fully.

    If by writing those that you did you were trying to show you are an intellectual or liberal, I’ll throw out at you what others have said elsewhere – you are only pseudo intellectual or pseudo liberal. Pretending you are intellectual or liberal when in fact you are not.

    No intellectual would take issue on authorities or sources of information. An intellectual or liberal would in fact welcome inofrmation on the latest research and study findings. And discuss them in a proper manner, complete with authorities of one’s statements and sources of information put out.

    And what is this “time-relative pendatang” you talk about? Care to state your source? Or is it your own theory? If so, you might want to change your name from kopihangtuah to kedaikopitepijalan.

    Who told you that “if you draw a line at around 1,000 A.D., the Chinese can be regarded as “Pendatang”? The Chinese Buddhist traveller I Xing only dropped by the Srivijaya Malay Kingdom centres at Palembang and Kedah on his pilgrimage to the birth place of Buddha in India in the 7th Century AD, but did not settle down, though he recorded his observations. One Chinese Ambassador also recorded his visit to a place translated as Red Earth, presumed to be either in Kelantan or the north eastern Kingdom of Langkasuka and observed the lavish court ceremonies of the civilization there, but also did not settle down. So, where got “draw a line at around 1,000 A.D., the Chinese can be regarded as “Pendatang”?

    No other known records of Chinese being here until the period of the Malacca Sultanate starting from the 15th Century. Do you know that they came to settle down in large numbers only in the latter half of the 19th Century, brought in as labourers or “coolies” during the British colonial times?

    And how to “draw a line, say at 5,000 B.C., the Malays can be regarded as “Pendatang”? 5,000 BC is 7,000 years ago and the earliest known human civilization is said to have been around 8,000 years ago in Jericho, some where in Asia Minor. Even Chinese recorded history is only 3,500 years old and Chinese history based on archeological excavations etc began only 4,500 – 5,000 years ago. Historically, the Chinese did not exist in 5,000 BC! So, where got “draw a line, say at 5,000 B.C., the Malays can be regarded as “Pendatang”? Aiyya, going by your “theories”, the History Professors would go kapputz or cracko lah.

    And “if it was 5,000 B.C, then only the Negritos are Bumiputras I’d imagine”? Don’t “imagine” lah kawan, because people quote you history books. And don’t start making snide remarks on “bibiliography”.

    You have a rather warped mind in thinking that we are discussing history. Can’t you see that we are discussing Sakmongkol’s blog article referring to Tun Dr Mahathir as a mamak and exploting TDM’s words “I HAVE INDIAN BLOOD BUT I AM MALAY”. Of course, in order to dispute mongkol, people have to go into history – the established history i.e facts rather than your unsubstantiated “theories” and non-authoritative opinions.

    Like

    • Wan,

      Have you gone mad? You are leaving a reply to me but not under my comment, instead under JMD’s comments. So I did not get notification of your reply. I found it by chance.

      Wan

      I just want to highlight a few basic points:

      1. Fair enough, facts must be supported by imperical evidence and sources

      2. Exactly my point, I want to discuss Sakmongkol,.. not history

      3. Some say I try to be smart when I am not. The thing is, so many commentators want to show that they are smart by being picky about history for which nobody knows who is right and wrong. Personally, I don’t give much care to those comments coz until now, I still haven’t got a good debate with Sakmongkol’s supporter.

      4. You can use many approach to bash me be it historical facts, inconsistencies etc. But deep down inside, I know you agree that the concept of Pendatang can be linked directly to Time. If what is Bumiputra is established at a particular point of time, say Time X, then any other ethnic groups that arrive subsequent to X would be Pendatang. So, my illustration was just to demonstrate that had X been thousands of years ago, “maybe” at that time, even Malays were not on this peninsula (subject to which theory is being used. If you use the Tamadun Alam Malayu theory then this is not logical. I am referring to the theory that I shared, ie Mongoloids stuff). Hence, if X was prior to arrival of Malays (If Malays were not original inhabitants), then Malays can be regarded as Pendatang. Before you argue back. I must say to you that I used the word “If Malays were not original inhabitants” so that I consider ideas given by Dot, Husar and Ikhwan. So, you trying to shoot me down with 5,000 BC etc,.. is just a nasty way of arguing something akin to “spelling mistake” if you know what I mean. My idea is timing can definition consequences as far as Bumiputra is concerned.

      Ok Dude. Hope that clarifies.

      Like

      • kopihangtuah,

        The comment was posted as a reply to your comment but there could have been a technical glitch that it appeared elsewhere. You must be new to blogosphere to be commenting even that.

        Even when you want to discuss Sakmongkol, when you mentioned matters that require historical explanation and people respond to them, you have to address them. Strange that you think and say otherwise. See how much of the discussions here have deviated from substantive dialogue, because you argue in a manner different from the norm. No wonder there’s a lot of thumb downs to you, yet you seem insensitive, even repulsive, to readers indicating you are going the wrong way.

        I must say I agree with the latter part of your statement “Some say I try to be smart when I am not.” You are not smart when saying “so many commentators want to show that they are smart by being picky about history for which nobody knows who is right and wrong.” You still insist your theory is right when you don’t quote sources or authorities for your statements and opinions. And saying you “don’t give much care to those comments”, just wanting “a good debate with Sakmongkol’s supporter.”

        I don’t know what subject you studied at tertiary level but you don’t sound scientific minded or even rational when insisting “the concept of Pendatang can be linked directly to Time” – after people have pointed out that the “theories” you put out are old, that they may be superseded by later research and scientifically done studies. And, goodness gracious, some one has even suggested you read the book containing the results of the many recent research and academic studies first before commenting further.

        I’m afraid your “theory” that the “Malays can be regarded as Pendatang” needs not be entertained any more and should be ignored. In the absence of reliable and authoritative sources of information, opinions backed by generally accepted facts, or those stated by qualified and internationally recognized as experts in anthropology, archeology, linguistics and such, that “theory” appears merely as a figment of your imagination.

        Like

        • Wan,

          Referring to “you argue in a manner different from the norm”, …. is there a rule that JMD impose on commentators that it has to be specific to certain style? The fact that JMD has so far allowed my comments to appear, I must be commenting in a “norm”al way.

          On the “being smart” thing. I meant to say that I wasn’t ‘trying’ to show that I am smarter than anyone else. Instead, you are saying, directly, that I am not smart (despite you not knowing what level of education I have. For all you know, I might be a mad scientist with multiple degrees, etc). I have no problems in people saying that I am not smart. It just reflects how crude you are in a forum like this.

          I was merely sharing whatever I know. Of course I do appreciate people suggesting all sorts of reading material since they thought that I have illogical knowledge about the subject matter. If you read some of my comments to the other commentators, you will find that I acknowledge their references and I intend to read them. Went to MPH to look for Tamadun Alam Melayu but no more stock. Will have to go to Muzium Negara then.

          The concept of “Time” relativity to how a certain ethnic group can be included/excluded from a category such as “Bumiputra” is merely a hypothesis. I am not saying that it is some proven facts. All I am saying that when a certain definition is set, the timing of when you arrive has a bearing. Ok maybe bumiputra is a sensitive subject for such hypothesis but a relevant one since we are talking about whether Tun M is Malay or not Malay. A good example would be Penangites. Those born in Penang up to certain years (cannot remember, maybe it was 50’s or 60’s or was it 1957 Merdeka….) are regarded as Britisg subjects and can therefore vote for the British parliamentary elections. Those born subsequently cannot. This was later rectified so that no Penangites can vote for British parliament. So as you can see, I was merely trying to put “Time” into perspective. How else can the Baba Nyonyas, Portuguese decendants of Melaka, etc are regardded as Bumiputra or Parabumi or Peribumi or whatever they are called (please correct me if I am wrong since you referred me as “not” smart and presumably you are smart).

          By the way, can you answer these questions for me:
          1. Have you read “Tamadun Alam Melayu”?
          2. Have you read “A Doctor in the House”?
          3. Have you read “The Malay Dilemma”?

          For somebody who says I am not smart, I presume you’d have read all the above?

          In case you want to ask me the same questions, my answers are: I am still trying to get No.1, Just started reading No.2 and read No.3 20 years ago.

          Cheers

          Like

          • I’ve read all three, man, read No. 3 earlier than you did.

            But I’d like to ditto the commenter who does not wish to discuss further with you, as you appear to not even understand what the word “norm” means.

            When rebutted, instead of stating or giving an indication of what study discipline you pursued at tertiary level, you just mock about possibly having a string of degrees. Where got dialogue like that, man.

            If you said you studied English Literature, I would have no mercy on you for not understanding some English words. If you studied science subjects, I would show more understanding and perhaps make lengthy explanations like some have done for you. Yet you persist on your unsubstantiated “my theory”.

            Sorry, over and out until I see rational and well-substantiated comments from you.

            Like

          • hi kopihangtuah,

            i salute you for the ability to keep going in this whole tiresome one-upmanship tangent. i suppose you actually felt you had little choice.

            still, i don’t know how you do it, man. at some point i would have looked at all that irrelevant hair being splitted into nano dimensions and went “stuff that!*, tip this silly boater i have on, and just let everyone go their tertiary-educated ways, happy in “their knowledge” that they have well and truly put me in my non-scholastic place.

            so what if they think they’re smarter and better-educated, they’re just a bunch of strangers and as one of my besties would say “where’s the contest?”.

            i would have conceded all argument(s) if it meant sparing myself from being bored out of my skull and being distracted from the things i came to a particular blog-entry to read/participate.

            but that’s just me. *tip my hat to you again!*😀

            Like

            • Not meaning to have a last say as this post has long closed, just wanna say not understanding mekyam’s drift here.

              Maybe it’s because I didn’t study English literature but I did read that Tamadun Alam Melayu book and, like a few of the others, cannot allow unchallenged people saying Melayu are pendatang in this country without quoting authorities.

              Just for the record.

              Like

            • Not sure whether to say thanks or not🙂 The key word that started the debate was “Pendatang”. I am a Malay. As a Malay, I must be prepared to accept contradictory views to be able to build strength. So If I say I am not Pendatang and some Nons come out with the arguments that I had debated with Ikhwan and gang, at least I have the counter-views such as my reference to Tun M’s criteria for Bumiputra as well as historical points that I will find (when I read the book) in Tamadun Alam Melayu (for which I am grateful to have been suggested by Ikhwan and Gang). Thank (there I said the word).

              Like

  45. menunggu komen jebat must die, UMNO top spin doctor tentang video seks.. ntah ape si jebat must die ni nak spin plak.. pasal madey mamak pun dia spin.. come on la.. if mahathir’s granddad is an indian, so it is true that he is mamak!!! definisi mamak ialah india muslim dan/atau india ada campur melayu.. kalo pure india, kita tak panggil mamak.. apa masalahny kalo aku panggil madey mamak??? org bukan anti mamak, org cuma anti mamak yg lebih melayu dari org melayu.. tu aje.. jangan nak over melayu, especialy kalo kita ni mamak…….lagi satu.. pasal lifeblood or bloodline.. kalo ayah atau tok kita india dan nenek atau mak kita melayu, kita mamak.. tapi anak kita ialah melayu sbb kita melayu bini pun melayu.. so mukriz tu melayu sbb jarak agak jauh.. selepas dua generasi baru bleh hilang boold tu jadi pure melayu..

    Like

    • Come on la Anak Watan.

      Read the constitution. Our forefathers defined our race as such so that it comply with Islam. We are 1 out of 2 races in the world who define it self by religion, tradition and language. Be proud of that. Malay should be like Islam, it can not be inherited but to be thought and learned. through that only can you be a true Muslim. Our forefathers wanted us to defend Islam with our body,mind and soul.Mahathir is as Malay as other Malays. Ridhuan Tee is another sample of a constitutional Malay.

      Like

    • @ Anak_Watan yg tak layak memanggil dirinya anak watan

      Tak kiralah mahathir tu mamak ker, darah campuran ker, apa yg paling penting dah terbukti ialah dia yg lebih banyak menyumbang ke arah pembangunan bangsa Melayu kalau dibandingkan dengan mana-mana so-called pure-blood Melayu, tambah2 muka pencacai macam kau.

      org macam kau ni, selama ini kononnya Islamik sangat, bangsa tak penting konon. tapi when it comes into Mahathir, kau sibuk membandingkan antara Melayu Mamak dengan Melayu “tulen”.

      “org bukan anti mamak, org cuma anti mamak yg lebih melayu dari org melayu.. tu aje.. jangan nak over melayu, especialy kalo kita ni mamak…….”

      that’s your silliness+arrogance+stupidity. sebagai anak melayu aku lebih berterima kasih kalau melayu berdarah campur (eg. Mahathir) bahkan kalau purely bukan melayu sekalipun (eg. Ridhuan Tee) selagi org tu prihatin & memberi sumbangan terhadap pembangunan bangsa Melayu, rather than melayu jenis pencacai (macam kau lah) yg hanya sibuk memeriksa darah keturunan org melayu lain samaada tulen atau mamak atau siam atau arab, tapi diri sendiri yg kononnya “melayu tulen sangat” tu habuk pun tarak!

      kau tu sendiri jangan nak berlagak kononnya pentingkan asal-usul org melayu sedangkan kau sendiri habuk pun tarak, melainkan jadi pencacai semata-mata.

      Like

    • Facepalm moment.

      “If Mahathir’s dad is Indian, therefore he is Indian.” Says who? Who decides one is mamak or not mamak? Who provides the definition of mamak as Indian-Muslim or half-malay, half-indian? where is it mentioned? is there a legitimate sociological definition given on what is a mamak? What we do have is a constitutional definition of a Malay: Muslim, speaks Malay and practices Malay custom. Very wide definition, happens to work. And it applies to Mahathir.

      “Org bukan anti-mamak, cuma anti-mamak yg lebih melayu dari org melayu” Siapa kau nak cakap org tu bukan melayu atau melayu? Siapa kau nak cakap org tak boleh berlagak lebih melayu atau tidak? Kenapa Dr Mahathir perlu mengaku dirinya sebagai orang bukan Melayu, kalau dia hidup seperti orang Melayu dari kecil, bertutur dalam bahasa Melayu, beragama Islam dan berbudaya Melayu. Dan yang paling penting, ayah beliau tidak mewarisi kepada beliau budaya atau bahasa atau cara hidup masyarakat India. Jadi kenapa dia perlu mengakui “kemamakan” itu kalau tiada penentu “kemamakan”nya kecuali definisi pelik mengenai darah campur yang masih belum lepas 2 keturunan (nampaknya hanya lepas 2 keturunan baru darah Melayu tu kembali pure)?

      There is nothing in the constitution that requires some strange blood with magical properties to run through your veins to make you a Malay. So stop imitating the KKK, it’s actually quite ridiculous.

      Like

    • sumpah komen ko macam org bodo… cuba ko baca balik komen ko dan hayatinya semula… memang bodo la wei… bodo giler…

      Like

  46. This chap doesn’t know what his talking about. His personal life with a new young AirAsia stewardess wife must have made his mind go crazy!!! I guess he thought his comments would make Umno top leadership choose him for the upcoming election.

    My advice to him is – sort out your problems with Mamasita & your kids. Leave the political issues to others. You are out of date

    Like

  47. I would like to congragulate Jebat Must Die on the manner the defence argument was made on behalf of Tun Mahathir against Sakmongkol.

    Come to think about it, we are able to blog and interact with each other on the net is because we had a Visionary Prime Minister who think out of the box to bring us in a very short time the development that enable us to blog, send and receive e-mail and all the other techno savvy stuff.

    That much , if even that much we CANT think and give just creadit to Dr M, then we are actually a real asshole.

    To critic a person pedigree is something unbecoming of us because we dont share the sentiments and feelings of that person we are critisizing. In the movie – Dances with the Wolves / Kevin Costner was a frontier man who lives nearby Red Indian villages. After long association with Red Indians and with the passage of time, he (the character) slowly identify himself with the Red Indians and eventually turns into one. The point is here, if you are brought up as a Malay, then you are a Malay. Never mind if you have a little bit or 90% of Indian blood in you. My mother was born out of Indian parentage but both my grandfather and grandmother were surrounded by Malays and they live associating themselves with Malays. My mother acknowledge here Indian blood but culturally she was brough up like a Malay and therefore she refer to herself as a Malay. So what you expect me to do to my mother ? Reprimand her like what Sakmongkol did to Dr M.

    We should respect that claim and allow a person to freely adopt ways and manners that influence them most in their upbringing. Thats is only natural. We should learn to respect that.

    This Sakmongkol, maybe out of love for Anwar, he develop hatred for Dr M. There are many among Anwar supporters whom he successfully brainwashed and turns into ignorant Zombies. For them, Anwar is like god….and in their eyes, he can do no wrong even if his sperm is in someone else asshole. We act as if we are 100% sure that Dr M is wrong in dismissing Anwar. Nevertheless, Allah is Most Merciful. New evidence began to emerge to suggest that Dr M was right. Insya Allah…in a very short time, the truth will reveal itself and we all owe Dr M an apology.

    Jebat Must Die…..stay on the course.

    PAO
    Moderator

    Like

    • Been to your site and left a comment there.

      I like sites that have substance in the blog posts and rebuttals. Also that allow comments under Anon so that I don’t have to think of a pseudonym.

      Most of us don’t reveal ourselves, don’t we? Sakmongkol revealed himself only after getting Datoship, I think. And he bit the hand that gave him the award.

      No harm in using pseudonyms. They have been doing it for ages in the West and elsewhere. TDM also used it in his early writing days – CheDet.

      Like

  48. I don’t care if TDM is Martians by blood. I still love him and have so much respect for the things that he has done.

    To pro sak, wenger and etc (too irrelevant to remember) .. you guys are so warped! Let me know what kind of acid you’re on, I wanna get me some too…and btw, spinning much?

    Like

  49. Well this Ariff Sabri aka Sakmongkol is just one of those rejected YB who failed in their duty to serve the rakyat … mind him … nobody care about him anymore ..cry baby.

    Like

    • Really? Do you know the Jewish god? Sometimes spelt yhwh? Do many non-Jews know the Jewish god?

      I’m told the Jewish priests are not even keen to explain about their God. The Qur’an has references to the Jews not wanting to share their religion with others. And now the missionary activities are more on preventing Jewish youngsters leaving for other religions.

      But with the 4 letter word you implied, you don’t have any religion, have you , Steve McCurry? And are you for real, a racist White losing your way here? Or you are a lowly scum masquerading as a White skin, brandishing the Jewish god’s name but not carrying a Jewish name, bringing hate into his blog.

      Like

    • The Americans? What is that? The last I checked the dictionary it means bunch of dickheads who are Arrogant, Ignorant and Recalcitrant (AIR). You got AIR!

      How rude of you to drop in and make fun of Malaysians. I pressume you are a Jew. You give Jews a bad name. The Jews themselves should slaughter you. Do yourself a favour. Go get one of our Malay-English dictionary and look for the word “Sula”. If you come to this country, we will do just that to you.

      Like

  50. Setiap blogger itu berperanan sebagai seorang utusan.
    Cara untuk mengenal mereka yang benar dan tidak benar adalah umpama pokok.
    Pokok yang baik menghasilkan buah yang baik.
    Pokok yang buruk menghasilkan buah yang tidak baik.
    Dari buahlah kita mengenali pokoknya dan dari bijilah kita mengenali buahnya.
    Semua biji benih mengandungi unsur yang sama dan disirami dengan air yang sama.
    Tetapi pokok yang tumbuh tetap berbeza.

    Like

  51. hmmm… ermmm.. who the hell cares of the lineage? after all, as pointed out TDM is 75%, how many of us malays are 100% malay, if not mix with achehs, jawas, bugis, yemenis, etc.

    anyway, a memoir is a memoir, a view of accounts in the eyes of the beholder.. like people say, if martians land in the vast ocean, they might think the world is only water, if landed in the desert, might think it is full of sands….

    Like

    • Achehs, Jawa, Bugis, Banjar etc are Melayu. Let me repeat part of my comment in the AlKitab post:

      Read the book recommended by Dot earlier on – Tamadun Alam Melayu by Mohd Arof Ishak published by the Historical Society of Malaysia. It gives out the results of scores of research and scientific studies carried out since the 19th Century until now, pointing out the 350 million Rumpun Melayu, which includes the Bumiputeras of Sabah and Sarawak, but divided into Malays, Indonesians, Philipinos etc and into Muslims, Christians etc, by outside influence, including colonialism, religion and politics.

      Like

      • perhaps i made a mistake on that 100% part but my point was on the 75% statement… do we have to argue one is not malay just because he is less 25%?

        Like

  52. Pingback: Lain Yang Berlaku Lain Yang Di Tulis | Passionate About Blogging

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